FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-08-2011, 06:11 AM   #31
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,060
Default

In the first chapter of The "Assumption of Moses", Moses is stated to be pre-existent, the mediator of God's covenant "prepared before the foundation of the world." As Moses death approached, he ordered Joshua (i.e. Jesus) to anoint (christen) his writings. These words were to be preserved until the Visitation of the Lord in the end of days. Joshua was tasked with completing the mission of Moses.

Quote:
"and he called to him Joshua the son of Nun ....
saying to Joshua these words...
Accordingly He (God) designed and devised me (Moses),
and He prepared me before the foundation of the world,
that I should be the mediator of His covenant. And now
I declare unto you that the time of the years of my
life is fulfilled and I am passing away to sleep with
my fathers even in the presence of all the people And
receive this writing that you may know how to preserve
the books which I shall deliver unto you: and you
shall set these in order and anoint them with oil of
cedar and put them away in earthen vessels in the
place which He made from the beginning of the creation
of the world, that His name should be called upon
until the day of repentance in the visitation
wherewith the Lord will visit them in the consummation
of the end of the days." Assumption of Moses, 1.12-14.
The "Assuption of Moses" is incomplete, so we don't know if Jesus accompanied Moses to Mt. Nebo or not in that work. Our extant portion ends with Moses giving Jesus his final instructions.

Since the alleged grave of Moses was unknown (Deut. 34:6), it was assumed he was wafted to heaven. (Or one Moses buried and his double wafted to heaven).

It has been suggested that Clement’s Stromata records the lost ending of "The Assumption of Moses." This cannot be definitively proven, because Clement does not say what the source of his tale might be. However, it does make a complete story when the two are read together.

Quote:
“Rightly, therefore, Jesus the son of Nave saw Moses,
when taken up [to heaven], double,-one Moses with the
angels, and one on the mountains, honoured with burial
in their ravines. And Jesus saw this spectacle below,
being elevated by the Spirit, along also with Caleb.
But both do not see similarly But the one descended
with greater speed, as if the weight he carried was
great; while the other, on descending after him,
subsequently related the glory which he beheld, being
able to perceive more than the other as having grown
purer;” Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 6, Chapter XV
jakejonesiv is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 06:33 AM   #32
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Jake

None of this contradicts the idea that Moses was superior to Joshua
stephan huller is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 06:41 AM   #33
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
The change of name from Oshea (LXX) to Jesus is clearly the point of departure for the divine Jesus angel. In Hebrew the added letter is yod which has a value of ten of course. The number ten is highly significant. It is the first letter of the tetragrammaton and there is a very, very old tradition that Christians marked themselves with the tetragrammaton (literally scratching their skin) with these letters to perfect their flesh. The idea could have arisen that a man became divine by following the transformative ritual performed on Oshea to make him 'Jesus.'
Hi Stephan,
there may have been similar customs in other religions as well. Aretaeus of Cappadocia writes of a kind of mania where:

Quote:
Some cut their limbs in a holy phantasy, as if thereby propitiating peculiar divinities. This is a madness of the apprehension solely; for in other respects they are sane. They are roused by the flute, and mirth, or by drinking, or by the admonition of those around them. This madness is of divine origin, and if they recover from the madness, they are cheerful and free of care, as if initiated to the god; but yet they are pale and attenuated, and long remain weak from the pains of the wounds.

editor's note: Our author, as Petit remarks, evidently refers here to the worship of Cybele; on which see in particular, the Atys of Catullus, and Apuleius, viii.
Incidentally, Aretaeus was the first physician in antiquity who considered mania and melancholia as symptomatic of a single underlying disorder.

Best,
Jiri
Solo is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 06:48 AM   #34
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
All testimonies point to Jesus being called Yeshu in Aramaic - the diminutive.
Hi Stephan,

Apparently you think I am stepping on your toes in this this thread. The thought never entered my mind until you started objecting.

The NT texts were composed in Greek, and early Christians showed a marked preference, where we can tell the difference, for the Jewish scriptures in Greek. Therefore, the Greek Iesous has priority over the translation into Aramaic. Indeed, I seriously question that there ever was a feet on the ground Aramaic speaking guy behind the figure of gospel Jesus. And just to be clear, I find it even more doubtful that Marcus Agrippa wrote a gospel or sat on a teeny tiny throne. So if you have a point to make, go ahead and make it.
jakejonesiv is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 07:10 AM   #35
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I am not so sure there wasn't an Aramaic foundation to Christianity and its writings. At the same time I recognize the influence of the LXX. Nevertheless the LXX agrees with the SP more often than not. Alsi the Marcionite in Adamantius seems to think there were no explicit scriptural citations on the NT so who know? Maybe these are secondary
stephan huller is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 07:17 AM   #36
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 2,014
Default

Hi jakejonesiv,

This is important stuff.
I think that the early history of Christianity only make sense if we assume the term "Jesus Christ" among the earliest Christians referred to the "anointed Joshua," the King/prophet and military leader anointed by Moses to lead the Jews in a military conquest of the promised land.

The anointed Joshua cult probably was the Fourth Philosophy that Josephus speaks about.

Only after the Bar Kochba rebellion failed in 132-135 did various tales of prophets and apostles of this militaristic cult get composited, confused and revised to give birth to the gospels and New Testament as we now know them.

This is where the evidence points.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakejonesiv View Post
I think that behind the figure of Gospel Jesus, there may lie a Joshua Revidicus expectation. Robert A. Kraft gathered some relevant information on this back in 1961/62, Was There a "Messiah-Joshua" Tradition at The Turn of the Era?


I would add to that, Joshua/Jesus ascended Mt. Sinai with Moses (Exodus 24:13) and descended Mt Siani with Moses (Exodus 32:16-18). In the first century CE Philo employed a midrashic tradition which interpreted Moses' ascent to Siani as a heavenly ascent where he was deified. (De Somnii 1.36, De Posteritute Caini 28.31, De Confusione Linguarum 30-32, Quaestones et Solutioners in Exodum 2.29)

Since Joshua alone was said to have accompanied him (Exodus 24:13-14 ), legend grew that Joshua shared in that deification, and the ascent and descent to heaven/Sinai. This presumed legend lies behind Ephesians 4:8-10.

The Targum on the Psalms 68:18 reads: 'Thou ascendedst up to the firmament, O prophet Moses, thou tookest captives captive, thou didst teach the words of the Law, thou gavest them as gifts to the children of men'.


In the Assumption of Moses, the dying Moses calls Jesus/Joshua to him and gives him the task of finishing his work, christening his books (Jesus Christ?), leading to the ushering in of "the consummation of the end of the days." Assumption of Moses, 1.12-14.

Jake Jones IV
PhilosopherJay is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 07:19 AM   #37
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 3,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
All testimonies point to Jesus being called Yeshu in Aramaic - the diminutive.
My father used to call him Yoshke. For example, Christmas Carols were Yoshke Music.

I continued this custom in his honor although I've been considering switching to Jesus H. Seems more respectful.
semiopen is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 07:21 AM   #38
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,060
Default

In the transfiguration scene in the gospels, Jesus Christ is joined atop the Mountain by two Old Testament worthies, namely Moses and Elijah. What did Moses and Elijah have in common? They both had, according to the Jewish scriptures, experienced a Theophany atop the Holy Mountain. Elijah 1 Kings 19:8ff , Moses Exodus 24:15ff.
(The Holy Mountain is called "Horeb" according to E and "Sinai" according to J.)
But what is often overlooked is that there was a third recipient of Theophany atop the Holy Mountain,.Joshua(=Iesous=Jesus) son of Nun!

We have the reunion of the three Old Testament saints who, according to the scriptures, experienced theophany atop the Holy mountain.

This cements the connection between Joshua son of Nun and Jesus Christ.

Jake
jakejonesiv is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 07:34 AM   #39
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Quote:
My father used to call him Yoshke
The Yiddish diminutive of Joshua. Yoshke = Yeshu (Aramaic)
stephan huller is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 07:38 AM   #40
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I am not following you Jake. None of this changes the fact that Moses is superior to Joshua.
stephan huller is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:17 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.