Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 03-07-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

You may be correct. I do not know, however, how the parallels alone would prove that the narrative contained no history. It is also possible that Jesus intentionally reenacted the Elijah material like many of the imposters in Josephus intentionally reenacted other OT narratives.

Ben.

An interesting idea. But if Jesus was allegedly in the business of deliberate reenactment, how far do you want to take it?

Didn't Hugh Schonfield's book the Passover Plot say that Jesus got himself crucified from intentionally acting out "prophecy?" Do you have something like that in mind?

Jake

jakejonesiv · 03-07-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

In that case, it was definitely a crib from the Psalms. However, the overall fit of Psalm 22 to the Passion is poor. One would not see a crucifixion in it unless one was looking for one to start with. It's as if someone looking for the crucifixion in the scriptures glommed onto verse 16 in the Psalm, "my hands and feet have shriveled [often translated 'pierced']," as a prophecy, and then invented details about the Passion to make the Psalm a somewhat better fit.

Quite simply, in some cases, it looks like the prophecy was stretched to fit events, and in other cases, it looks like events were embellished or fabricated to fit the prophecies. The direction is not all one way.

Hi jj,

That makes sense.

I have been toying with an idea I saw elsewhere. Some one took the gospels and eliminated every detail that possibly could have had an origin in the OT scriptures, on the theory that the gospel event was fabricated. This, in the case of the crucifixtion, would eliminate almost all of the details and leave us with a bare bones crucifixtion.

One of these days I am going to go through that exercise myself. I think all I would need is one of those Scofield Study Bibles and a black pen. Go through the gospels, and wherever it has one of those notes to the OT, scratch that out! Wonder what would be left?

Jake

Ben C Smith · 03-07-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

An interesting idea. But if Jesus was allegedly in the business of deliberate reenactment, how far do you want to take it?

Didn't Hugh Schonfield's book the Passover Plot say that Jesus got himself crucified from intentionally acting out "prophecy?" Do you have something like that in mind?

I have never read that book. And I am not sure (yet) how far to take it. But yes, I think that acting out prophecies or scenes from the Hebrew scriptures could have been interpreted as subversive, and could have gotten Jesus killed, just as acting out the crossing of the Jordan under Joshua got Theudas killed.

Ben.

Doug Shaver · 03-08-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Why then make the story a poor fit?

You think it's a poor fit. I think it's a poor fit. Millions of Christians nowadays swear that it's a perfect fit, and it's been that way for most of the past 2,000 years. The stories were put together by people who saw prophecies where people like you and me wouldn't see them.

jjramsey · 03-08-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

You think it's a poor fit. I think it's a poor fit. Millions of Christians nowadays swear that it's a perfect fit, and it's been that way for most of the past 2,000 years. The stories were put together by people who saw prophecies where people like you and me wouldn't see them.

Or, more likely, the stories were put together by people who tried to find prophecies to fit preexisting beliefs, and those millions of Christians are seeing the "prophecies" through the eyes of those people.

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