Freethought & Rationalism Archive

God Fearing Atheist · 02-24-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngalexander

See Clauss pg 30, The Pagan Revival section.

If we are to understand the motives of those involved in the 'pagan revival' we must look a little more closely at their own religious views, which are documented in a whole series of inscriptions. One of their religious centres was the temple of the Mater Magna on the Vatican Hill (the Phrygianum), where they put up numerous alters. (46) The best known representative of this group, ..., was Vettius Agorius Praetextatus... he was pater patrum in the cult of Mithras (V 420;CIL VI 1779)

Does not necessarily mean that "Mithraists had a presence", altho it seems likely.

(46) See H. Bloch, 'The Pagan Revival in the West at the End of the Fourth Century,' in The Conflict between Paganism and Christianity in the Fourth Century, A. Momigliano (ed.) (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1963), 193-218

Trusting that this is of assistance.

Indeed it is. Thanks.

It looks like my recollection was off.

Roger Pearse · 02-26-2007, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngalexander

See Clauss pg 30, The Pagan Revival section.

If we are to understand the motives of those involved in the 'pagan revival' we must look a little more closely at their own religious views, which are documented in a whole series of inscriptions. One of their religious centres was the temple of the Mater Magna on the Vatican Hill (the Phrygianum), where they put up numerous alters. (46) The best known representative of this group, ..., was Vettius Agorius Praetextatus... he was pater patrum in the cult of Mithras (V 420;CIL VI 1779)

Does not necessarily mean that "Mithraists had a presence", altho it seems likely.

Vettius was a priest in at least 5 cults, according to an inscription.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

God Fearing Atheist · 03-06-2007, 01:25 PM

Here's what Prudentius had to say:

It were needless in my song to tell the tale of how the house of the Gracchi, those friends of the people, supported by the authority of office and holding distinguished rank in the high office of the Senate, commanded the images of gods to be pulled down, and along with their lictors dedicated themselves humbly to the all powerful Christ to be ruled henceforth by him.

iam quid plebicolas percurram carmine Gracchos, iure potestatis fultos et in arce senatus praecipuos, simulacra deum iussisse revelli cumque suis pariter lictoribus omnipotenti suppliciter Christo se consecrasse regendos.

Roger Pearse · 03-07-2007, 12:01 AM

Do you have a specific reference?

Thanks,

Roger Pearse

Godless Dave · 03-07-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I am not sure about the mithraeum, but there does exist evidence to relate
the vatican (area) to the far more ancient Shivaism.

The word vatican comes from the Sanskrit word vatica, which means a bower or sylvan hermitage. Shiva emblems have been found in the vatican area, and across Italy. Examples are available from the Vatican's Etruscan museum.

Etymology online says "vaticanus" comes from Etruscan, not Sanskrit.

mountainman · 03-07-2007, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

Etymology online says "vaticanus" comes from Etruscan, not Sanskrit.

Perhaps the Shiva emblems, found in the vatican area,
and across Italy, also come from Tuscany.

Godless Dave · 03-07-2007, 03:20 AM

Probably not, if there are Shiva emblems there. But there are quite a lot of Etruscan loan words in Latin, and the two language populations were in the same place geographically. Speakers of Sanskrit were quite a distance away. If you have evidence that vaticus came from Sanskrit and not Etruscan, the language journals would love to see it.

premjan · 03-07-2007, 03:26 AM

I have never heard of any Shiva emblems in Italy. You mean the lingam or the trident.

God Fearing Atheist · 03-07-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Do you have a specific reference?

Thanks,

Roger Pearse

C. Symm. 1.561-565 from Loeb 387 (Prudentius, Vol. 1), translated by Thomson.

mountainman · 03-08-2007, 02:46 AM

Two references to Shivaism in Italy:

1) Some Missing Chapters of World History
(p. 134), P. N. Oak
The claim is made:

Explains that Shiva was worshiped all over the world, even in the Vatican. The word vatican comes from the Sanskrit word vatica, which means a bower or sylvan hermitage. He explains that even the premises of the Vatican have many Shiva emblems buried in their walls and cellars. Many such emblems have been dug up in other parts of Italy as well. And some of those found in the Vatican are still preserved in the Vatican's Etruscan museum.

I have not been to the Vatican's Etruscan museum.
I am assuming this claim (c.1974?) holds water.

2) Gods of Love and Ecstacy:
The Traditions of Shiva and Dionysus - Alain Danielou.
Scattered references linking the two above traditions
in the Mediterranean. eg: p.41...

Erect stome phalli, sometimes decorated with a face
or entwinded with a serpent, are found in England, Sweden,
Italy, Brittany, Corsica, Greece, Arabia and India ...

Also this quote, p.62, possibly of marginal interest:

According to the Etruscan History of Italy by Prometheus,
quoted by Plutarch, a phallus appeared in the fireplace of
the King of the Albani. He commanded his daughter to
couple with the phallus, but she refusedand sent her maid-
servant instead. From the latter were born
Romulus and Remus...

03-08-2007, 02:46 AM	#30
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Two references to Shivaism in Italy: 1) Some Missing Chapters of World History (p. 134), P. N. Oak The claim is made: Explains that Shiva was worshiped all over the world, even in the Vatican. The word vatican comes from the Sanskrit word vatica, which means a bower or sylvan hermitage. He explains that even the premises of the Vatican have many Shiva emblems buried in their walls and cellars. Many such emblems have been dug up in other parts of Italy as well. And some of those found in the Vatican are still preserved in the Vatican's Etruscan museum. I have not been to the Vatican's Etruscan museum. I am assuming this claim (c.1974?) holds water. 2) Gods of Love and Ecstacy: The Traditions of Shiva and Dionysus - Alain Danielou. Scattered references linking the two above traditions in the Mediterranean. eg: p.41... Erect stome phalli, sometimes decorated with a face or entwinded with a serpent, are found in England, Sweden, Italy, Brittany, Corsica, Greece, Arabia and India ... Also this quote, p.62, possibly of marginal interest: According to the Etruscan History of Italy by Prometheus, quoted by Plutarch, a phallus appeared in the fireplace of the King of the Albani. He commanded his daughter to couple with the phallus, but she refusedand sent her maid- servant instead. From the latter were born Romulus and Remus...

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03-06-2007, 01:25 PM	#23
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	Here's what Prudentius had to say: It were needless in my song to tell the tale of how the house of the Gracchi, those friends of the people, supported by the authority of office and holding distinguished rank in the high office of the Senate, commanded the images of gods to be pulled down, and along with their lictors dedicated themselves humbly to the all powerful Christ to be ruled henceforth by him. iam quid plebicolas percurram carmine Gracchos, iure potestatis fultos et in arce senatus praecipuos, simulacra deum iussisse revelli cumque suis pariter lictoribus omnipotenti suppliciter Christo se consecrasse regendos.

03-07-2007, 12:01 AM	#24
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Do you have a specific reference? Thanks, Roger Pearse

03-07-2007, 03:20 AM	#27
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Probably not, if there are Shiva emblems there. But there are quite a lot of Etruscan loan words in Latin, and the two language populations were in the same place geographically. Speakers of Sanskrit were quite a distance away. If you have evidence that vaticus came from Sanskrit and not Etruscan, the language journals would love to see it.

03-07-2007, 03:26 AM	#28
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	I have never heard of any Shiva emblems in Italy. You mean the lingam or the trident.

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