Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 02-25-2012, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

MUHammad had a mother and father
Muhammad is not a miracle producing prophet.
Muhammad says in the Qur'aan that he is ONLY a man .

Don't you dare draw his picture, though.

mountainman · 02-25-2012, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela Spencer

Since Jesus did not initially consummate his role as the Messiah, the Jews were inclined to reject him. However, some scholars claim that the Jews will gather around the figure known as "the Mahdi" (the Guide) and accept him as their Maschiach due to his "rule according to the Judgement of David and Solomon", supposed mastery of the Hebrew language, and potential lineage that derives from the line of Isaac. According to traditions, he is expected to uncover an unadulterated Torah scroll from Antioch.

Mahdi

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

When the Mahdi appears, God will cause such power of vision and hearing to be manifested in believers that the Mahdi will call to the whole world from where he is, with no postman involved, and they will hear and even see him.

So the Mahdi awaited/awaits bandwidth.

Why Antioch?

Net2004 · 02-25-2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Don't you dare draw his picture, though.

the guy os portrayed a humble person. not a show off. this is the reason why it would have been illegal for muslims to draw a picture of him.

PhilosopherJay · 02-25-2012, 06:40 AM

Hi Net2004,

How do you explain Muslims believing in Muhammad performing miracles for example splitting the moon and traveling to Heaven and meeting a God:

From "The Miracles of Muhammad:

Splitting the Moon...

Quote:

One of the times when God performed miracles at the hand of the Prophet was when the Meccans demanded to see a miracle from Muhammad to show his truthfulness. God split the moon in two separate halves and then re-joined them. The Quran recorded the event:

“The Last Hour draws near, and the moon is split asunder!” (Quran 54:1)

Prophet Muhammad would recite these verses of the Quran in large congregations of the weekly Friday prayer and the bi-annual Eed prayers.[1] Had the event never occurred, Muslims themselves would have doubted their religion and many would have left it! The Meccans would have said, ‘Hey, your prophet is a liar, the moon never split, and we never saw it split!’ Instead, the believers grew stronger in their faith and the only explanation the Meccans could come up with was, ‘passing magic!’

“The Last Hour draws near, and the moon is split asunder! And if they see a sign (miracle), they turn away and say, ‘Passing magic!’- for they are bent on giving it the lie, being always wont to follow their own desires.” (Quran 54:1-3)

The splitting of the moon is confirmed through eye-witness testimony transmitted through an unbroken chain of reliable scholars so many that is it impossible that it could be false (hadith mutawatir).[2]

Night Journey and Ascent to Heaven

Quote:

A few months before the migration from Mecca to Medina, God took Muhammad in one night from the Grand Mosque in Mecca to al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, a month’s journey of 1230 Km for a caravan. From Jerusalem, he ascended to the heavens, passing the boundaries of the physical universe to be in divine presence, meet God, and witness the Great Signs (al-Ayat ul-Kubra). His truth became apparent in two ways. First, ‘the Prophet described the caravans he had overtaken on the way home and said where they were and about when they might be expected to arrive in Mecca; and each arrived as predicted, and the details were as he had described.’[9] Second, he was never known to have been to Jerusalem, yet he described al-Aqsa Mosque to skeptics like an eye-witness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

MUHammad had a mother and father
Muhammad is not a miracle producing prophet.
Muhammad says in the Qur'aan that he is ONLY a man .
there are some muslims today who believe that muhammad was originally extra terrestrial or noor which preexisted all creation . the noor muhammad incarnated into the FLESH muhammad and walked the earth. but no suchIDEA exists in early islam which ties muhamamd to time and place and the Qur'aan clearly says MUHAMMAD is ONLY a man .

Inama ana basharun mithlukum

Only I a man like you

Chili · 02-25-2012, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

MUHammad had a mother and father
Muhammad is not a miracle producing prophet.
Muhammad says in the Qur'aan that he is ONLY a man .
there are some muslims today who believe that muhammad was originally extra terrestrial or noor which preexisted all creation . the noor muhammad incarnated into the FLESH muhammad and walked the earth. but no suchIDEA exists in early islam which ties muhamamd to time and place and the Qur'aan clearly says MUHAMMAD is ONLY a man .

Inama ana basharun mithlukum

Only I a man like you

It may be a translation problem but 'only a man' does not equal 'a man only' to say that "a man only" is no longer human and thus is God, but Mohammed always denied that himself to be.

What 'Muslims say' means nothing as no fallacy (ad populum here), will carry weight as they are based on fear and are not even artistic in persuasion.

Pamela Spencer · 02-25-2012, 08:56 AM

The act (or the lack, thereof) of performing miracles should have no real-world correlation with a person's alleged existence (nor should divine status be granted based on an individual's assumed capacity for performing such feats).

Saints, and lesser religious men are often attributed with the capacity for performing miraculous feats, as well as some modern day cult personalities (e.g. Kim Jung Il)

sotto voce · 02-25-2012, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela Spencer

The act (or the lack, thereof) of performing miracles should have no real-world correlation with a person's alleged existence (nor should divine status be granted based on an individual's assumed capacity for performing such feats).

Saints, and lesser religious men are often attributed with the capacity for performing miraculous feats, as well as some modern day cult personalities (e.g. Kim Jung Il)

The biblical perspective is that one is either a saint, and a brother of saints, regarding all brothers as equals, or one is not. The performance of miracles (and this may be sensibly regarded as total historic invention in respect of the chronically murderous papists) is regarded as denoting no special sanctity, but as divine gift only.

Chili · 02-25-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela Spencer

The act (or the lack, thereof) of performing miracles should have no real-world correlation with a person's alleged existence (nor should divine status be granted based on an individual's assumed capacity for performing such feats).

Saints, and lesser religious men are often attributed with the capacity for performing miraculous feats, as well as some modern day cult personalities (e.g. Kim Jung Il)

Saints are not actors but are known for their inaction often as the 'unknown author' only. They do not pretend or try to gain popularity by their effort in showmanship, as in Godmanship is where they only are.

Chili · 02-25-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The biblical perspective is that one is either a saint, and a brother of saints, regarding all brothers as equals, or one is not. The performance of miracles (and this may be sensibly regarded as total historic invention in respect of the chronically murderous papists) is regarded as denoting no special sanctity, but as divine gift only.

The bible has no perspective but is like the trojan war in action wherein philosophy, poetry and history are 'philosophical' and 'earnest' in descending order: Philosophers loooks at poetry but transcend it and poetry looks at history but transcends it.

aa5874 · 02-25-2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Yes. Do you have an objection? To review, I said: "...whenever a cult adheres to a reputedly-human founder of the cult, then that person existed, in all cases that we know about. There are no known cases where the reputedly-human founder of the cult existed only as myth."

Well, in the NT Jesus was NOT human.
Examine gMark

Mark 6:48 KJV

Quote:

....and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

Examine gMatthew.

Matthew 1:18 KJV

Quote:

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise.... his mother Mary..... was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

And now examine gJohn 1.1

John 1:1 KJV

Quote:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now the Pauline writer.

Galatians 1:1 KJV

Quote:

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)...

Jesus of the NT was NOT human but some knd of Myth Fable.

The FOUNDER of the Jesus cult was most likely the author of the earliest Jesus story--the unknown author of gMark.

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02-25-2012, 08:56 AM	#76
Pamela Spencer Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Northeastern USA Posts: 241	The act (or the lack, thereof) of performing miracles should have no real-world correlation with a person's alleged existence (nor should divine status be granted based on an individual's assumed capacity for performing such feats). Saints, and lesser religious men are often attributed with the capacity for performing miraculous feats, as well as some modern day cult personalities (e.g. Kim Jung Il)

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