Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wooster · 05-01-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

And chicks in long dresses playing tamborines are so not sexy.

A long see-through dress is not so bad but...

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

[STAFFWARN]Preaching is not welcome here.[/STAFFWARN]

Sorry, I was just quoting the Bible. . .

In an attempt to show proof that the bible is true, I would simply go to scripture and show that the bible said that the Jews would be scattered and they were. . .
Then it also says in the Bible that the Jews would be gathered back together from the four corners of the earth and out of every nation would they come back together as a nation. . . THEN the end would come. . .

I may have got a little preachy at the end of my statement. . . I do apologize for that. . . But I am a preacher. . . I sincerely will try to watch myself and stay within the bounds of what you require. . .

Thank You.

Toto · 05-01-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

...
Sorry, I was just quoting the Bible. . .

In an attempt to show proof that the bible is true, I would simply go to scripture and show that the bible said that the Jews would be scattered and they were. . .

Except that the Jews were scattered before the time of Jesus, and afterwards, for reasons having nothing to do with their supposed rejection of the Messiah.

Quote:

Then it also says in the Bible that the Jews would be gathered back together from the four corners of the earth and out of every nation would they come back together as a nation. . . THEN the end would come. . .

Are you claiming that any of this has happened?

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Uhm, how do you figure that, since Jebus didn't meet any of the qualifications required to be a Jewish messiah?

:huh:

* Isaiah 7:14 Behold a Virgin shall be with Child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel. . .

(Emmanuel means God With Us. . .Jesus born of the Holy Ghost)

* Micah 5:2 (KJV)
2 But thou, Bethlehem, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

(Jesus was born in Bethlehem)

* Hosea 11:1 (KJV)
Out of Egypt have I called my Son.

(Jesus was taken into Egypt as a child to protect Him from Herod.)

* Zechariah 9:9 (KJV)
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

(And they laid palm leaves at the feet of the colt crying Hosannah in the Highest)

* Isaiah Chapter 53 States that He would come as a Lamb to the Slaughter to take away the sins of the world - it pleased God to bruise Him.

* Genesis 3:15 (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

(A seed has power within itself to resurrect when sown into good soil)

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Personally, the arguments from both sides seem rather technical and frankly trivial.

I'm not looking forward to a time when I've got a schlep a cow to the third temple before I can eat a hamburger. And chicks in long dresses playing tamborines are so not sexy.

* Hebrews 10:4-6 (KJV)
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

* John 1:29 (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

show_no_mercy · 05-01-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Uhm, how do you figure that, since Jebus didn't meet any of the qualifications required to be a Jewish messiah?

:huh:

* Isaiah 7:14 Behold a Virgin shall be with Child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel. . .

(Emmanuel means God With Us. . .Jesus born of the Holy Ghost)

This is the most often quote-mined scripture that Christians use. Let's look at Isaiah 7 in context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaiah 7:10 - 16

10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,
11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."
12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."
13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The young woman will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [b] will call him Immanuel.
15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.
16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Isaiah 7:10 - 16 in plain English:

10: And God spoke to Ahaz and said
11: "Come on, ask me for a sign [that your enemies will be defeated]"
12: "Hmm... I dunno..."
13: Then he said "Come on, King [Ahaz]. You're quick to not trust people, but you're not going to trust God either?"
14: "God's gonna give you a sign. Check out this chick right here. The kid she's bearing is going to be named 'Immanuel'"
15: "He's going to eat the finest food and be a really good kid"
16: "But before he gets hair on his nuts, your enemies will be defeated"

Here is the biography of King Ahaz from the Jewish Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...=A&search=ahaz

Quote:

Son of King Jotham. His reign is memorable as that in which Judah first became vassal to Assyria, and Assyrian (Babylonian) modes of worship were first introduced into the official worship at Jerusalem. The Hebrew authorities know only the form of his name given above, but the Assyrians called him Yauḥazi (= Jehoahaz: "Whom YHWH has held fast"); the former name being a contraction of the latter, like Nathan for Elnathan or Jonathan. Immediately upon his accession Ahaz had to meet a combination formed by northern Israel, under Pekah, and Damascus (Syria), under Rezin. These kings apparently wished to compel him to join them in opposing the Assyrians, who were arming a force against Syria and Palestine under the great Tiglath-Pileser III. (Pul). To protect himself he called in the aid of the Assyrians. Through their interference, and as a result of their invasion and subjection of the kingdom of Damascus and of Palestine outside of Judah, Ahaz was relieved of his troublesome neighbors; but his protector henceforth claimed and held suzerainty over his kingdom. This war of invasion lasted two years (734-732 B.C.), and ended in the capture and annexation of Damascus to Assyria and of the territory of Israel north of the border of Jezreel. Ahaz in the meanwhile furnished auxiliaries to Tiglath-Pileser. This appeal to Assyria met with stern opposition from the prophet Isaiah, who counseled Ahaz to rely upon the Lord and not upon outside aid. The sequel seemed to justify the king and to condemn the prophet. Ahaz, during his whole reign, was free from troubles with which the neighboring rulers were harassed, who from time to time revolted against Assyria. Thus it was that, in 722, Samaria was taken and northern Israel wholly incorporated into the Assyrian empire. But what was externally a blessing proved to be inwardly a curse. Ahaz, who was irresolute and impressible, yielded readily to the glamour and prestige of the Assyrians in religion as well as in politics. In 732 he went to Damascus to swear homage to Tiglath-Pileser and his gods; and, taking a fancy to an altar which he saw there, he had one like it made in Jerusalem, which, with a corresponding change in ritual, he made a permanent feature of the Temple worship. Changes were also made in the arrangements and furniture of the Temple, "because of the king of Assyria" (II Kings, xvi. 18). Furthermore, Ahaz fitted up an astrological observatory with accompanying sacrifices, after the fashion of the ruling people. In other ways Ahaz lowered the character of the national worship. It is recorded that he even offered his son by fire to Moloch. His government must be considered, on the whole, disastrous to his country, especially in its religious aspects; and a large part of the reforming work of his son Hezekiah aimed at undoing the evil that Ahaz had wrought.

In other words, Isaiah told King Ahaz in the beginning of chapter 7 to not make alliances with other kingdoms and to rely on god: "14Behold the young woman shall be with Child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel". There's no mention of a virgin in the Hebrew text, the word used is "almah" which means "young woman". If the writer of Isaiah meant "virgin" he would have used the word "bethulah".

Even if the Hebrew did say "virgin", why would god give King Ahaz a "sign" (the coming of age or maturity of the child) that his current enemies would be defeated that wouldn't come to fruition centuries after Ahaz was dead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

* Hosea 11:1 (KJV)
Out of Egypt have I called my Son.

(Jesus was taken into Egypt as a child to protect Him from Herod.)

Another "prophecy" taken out of context. Hosea 11:1 in context is actually
"When Israel was a child I loved him. And out of Egypt I called my son". This has nothing to do with Jesus, it's about the Jews as a whole in regards to the Exodus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

* Isaiah Chapter 53 States that He would come as a Lamb to the Slaughter to take away the sins of the world - it pleased God to bruise Him.

Again, another Christian quote-mine. Isaiah here is talking about the Jews as a whole. Israel is the Suffering Servant, not Jesus. It follows the theme of the previous chapters where Isaiah explicitly says that Israel is regarded as one unit. Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 04:33 PM

James 2:13 (KJV)
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Matthew 5:7 (KJV)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

But then doesn't the scriptures say, "Let God be true and all men liars."

You don't have to believe the scriptures:
But isn't that why you have the topic about weather the bible is genuine or not. . .

Jesus said to search the Scriptures for in them you think that you have life, but they are them which speak of Me. . .

This is the topic of the Forum that you are debating isn't it?

Has anyone spoken to really prove the Scriptures were not pointing to the fact that Jesus really did come, really did live, really did die, and really did rise again. . .

And if the Tomb really is empty - wouldn't you want to know it?

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 05:00 PM

On May 14th 1948 Israel became a Nation for the First Time - marking a countdown to the end.

The Bible warns a series of events (which will change the world forever) would begin after Israel would once again become a sovereign Nation (after almost 2,500 years) . . . This remarkable event took place on May 14, 1948! How has the world reacted to such a profound fulfillment of Bible prophecy? A miracle that can be documented by simply looking at the Bible and a map. It has ignored it! Just as God warned most of the world will ignore the signs of the coming 'Apocalypse' (also called 'the time of Jacob's trouble', the 'Great Tribulation,' and 'the Day of the Lord.'). Remember, God uses prophecy to prove He is who He says His is, and to authenticate all the warnings and the promises found in the Bible . . .

"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Shall the Earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children."
(Note: This prophecy was fulfilled in one day - on May 14, 1948)
(Isaiah 66:8)

"He will set up a banner for the nations,
and will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the Earth." (Not just Babylon ...)
(Isaiah 11:12)

"Thus says the Lord God:
' Surely I will take the children of Israel
from among the nations,
wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side
and bring them into their own Land."
(Ezekiel 37:21)
('Nations' plural ... this is not their return from Babylon)

"And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel,
and say, ‘O mountains of Israel,
hear the Word of the LORD ...’"
"But you, O mountains of Israel,
you shall shoot forth your branches
and yield your fruit to My people Israel,
for they are about to come . . ."
"For I will take you (the children of Israel) from among the nations,
gather you out of all countries,
and bring you into your own Land."
(Ezekiel 36:1, 8, 24)

"Thus says the Lord GOD:
‘Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, (plural ... not Babylon)
wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side
and bring them into their own Land;’"
(Ezekiel 37:21)

Search through history for a sovereign nation Israel . . .

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

* Isaiah 7:14 Behold a Virgin shall be with Child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel. . .

(Emmanuel means God With Us. . .Jesus born of the Holy Ghost)

This is the most often quote-mined scripture that Christians use. Let's look at Isaiah 7 in context:

In other words, Isaiah told King Ahaz in the beginning of chapter 7 to not make alliances with other kingdoms and to rely on god: "14Behold the young woman shall be with Child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel". There's no mention of a virgin in the Hebrew text, the word used is "almah" which means "young woman". If the writer of Isaiah meant "virgin" he would have used the word "bethulah".

Virgin feminine of <H5958> (`elem); a lass (as veiled or private) :- damsel, maid, virgin.
Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

In Isaiah 7:14 the word for Virgin is elem and it means Virgin. . .

It is not almah. . .

1Sa 17:56
David takes the challenge
56*And the king said, Enquire thou whose son the stripling is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

1Sa 20:22
David consults with Jonathan for his safety
22*But if I say thus unto the young man, Behold, the arrows are beyond thee; go thy way: for the LORD hath sent thee away.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Almah is the hebrew equivalent to the word Stripling and the word Young in these two scripture references.
These have to do with boys and not girls. . .

This is the only reference to the word Almah in the Bible. . .

show_no_mercy · 05-01-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

This is the most often quote-mined scripture that Christians use. Let's look at Isaiah 7 in context:

In other words, Isaiah told King Ahaz in the beginning of chapter 7 to not make alliances with other kingdoms and to rely on god: "14Behold the young woman shall be with Child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel". There's no mention of a virgin in the Hebrew text, the word used is "almah" which means "young woman". If the writer of Isaiah meant "virgin" he would have used the word "bethulah".

Virgin feminine of <H5958> (`elem); a lass (as veiled or private) :- damsel, maid, virgin.
Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

In Isaiah 7:14 the word for Virgin is elem and it means Virgin. . .

It is not almah. . .

Isaiah 7:14 in HEBREW:
יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.

Please highlight which word here is "elem".

Isaiah 7:14 in GREEK:
διὰ τοῦτο δώσει κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Eμμανουηλ

Here I've highlighted where Matthew screwed up - he quoted the LXX version of Isaiah 7:14 which indeed does say "virgin" (παρθένος - parthenos). Like I said in my previous post though - this verse has nothing to do with the messiah even if it does say "virgin". The sign was one that Ahaz was supposed to witness himself. Ahaz didn't live for hundreds of years and witnessed Jesus reach puberty, and the events that Isaiah was trying to prevent had already happened by the time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

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05-01-2009, 04:33 PM	#37
jkhuss1 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 173	James 2:13 (KJV) 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Matthew 5:7 (KJV) Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. But then doesn't the scriptures say, "Let God be true and all men liars." You don't have to believe the scriptures: But isn't that why you have the topic about weather the bible is genuine or not. . . Jesus said to search the Scriptures for in them you think that you have life, but they are them which speak of Me. . . This is the topic of the Forum that you are debating isn't it? Has anyone spoken to really prove the Scriptures were not pointing to the fact that Jesus really did come, really did live, really did die, and really did rise again. . . And if the Tomb really is empty - wouldn't you want to know it?

05-01-2009, 05:00 PM	#38
jkhuss1 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 173	On May 14th 1948 Israel became a Nation for the First Time - marking a countdown to the end. The Bible warns a series of events (which will change the world forever) would begin after Israel would once again become a sovereign Nation (after almost 2,500 years) . . . This remarkable event took place on May 14, 1948! How has the world reacted to such a profound fulfillment of Bible prophecy? A miracle that can be documented by simply looking at the Bible and a map. It has ignored it! Just as God warned most of the world will ignore the signs of the coming 'Apocalypse' (also called 'the time of Jacob's trouble', the 'Great Tribulation,' and 'the Day of the Lord.'). Remember, God uses prophecy to prove He is who He says His is, and to authenticate all the warnings and the promises found in the Bible . . . "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the Earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children." (Note: This prophecy was fulfilled in one day - on May 14, 1948) (Isaiah 66:8) "He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the Earth." (Not just Babylon ...) (Isaiah 11:12) "Thus says the Lord God: ' Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own Land." (Ezekiel 37:21) ('Nations' plural ... this is not their return from Babylon) "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the Word of the LORD ...’" "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come . . ." "For I will take you (the children of Israel) from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own Land." (Ezekiel 36:1, 8, 24) "Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, (plural ... not Babylon) wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own Land;’" (Ezekiel 37:21) Search through history for a sovereign nation Israel . . .

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