Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nice Squirrel · 04-07-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

My question would be to any believers that if/when historical evidence surfaces that the basis of biblical stories are false or at the very least "different" is that enough to re-work your beliefs? Are you willing to accept change and how would you deal with it?

And how can one version of what's "holy" or right conflict with another (from the same church) yet everyone just keep on accepting things no matter what?

In my tradition, Jesus asked/ordered Judas to "betray" him. So this only reenforces my belief system. Otherwise, each mush judge on their own faith what to accept.

Roger Pearse · 04-07-2006, 08:45 AM

I was checking back at the site, since yesterday, and find that the complete English text is also available for download from here:

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/l...ptic_text.html

Since National Geographic have been so generous as to make the text and translation available, I think we should show our appreciation and go out and buy their risibly inexpensive book ($22).

All the best,

Roger Pearse

River · 04-07-2006, 04:37 PM

I'm just curious

does the G.o.J give any hints....elaborate upon

Gnostic Crucifixtion theories such as

1) Judas was crucified

2) Simon was crucified

3) "Swoon theory"

or

4) Jesus traveled to Kashmir/ Egypt/ Persia?

I know that it doesn't seem to directly confirm the Crucifixtion...but

is there any hints...or "Esoterism" (cryptic language) that might contribute towards

any one of these theories???

Ben C Smith · 04-07-2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Kudos to National Geographic for getting it out as quickly as they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Still more so for making the Coptic freely available!

I am loving this entire publication procedure. Simultaneously putting out the book and making both the original and the English translation available (for free) on the net... I can only hope this sets a precedent for future manuscript finds. Kudos indeed.

Ben.

Chris Weimer · 04-08-2006, 01:41 AM

River,

No.

best regards,

Chris Weimer

Peter Kirby · 04-08-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Well, I've been working on the first line, and I'm still completely stuck on one word (which Meyer et al. translates 'before he celebrated').

(17) ???

If someone can explain the word before Pascha for me, it would be appreciated.

Does nobody have any help with the Coptic word or words EMPATEFR? Right before Pascha in the transcription.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Phlox Pyros · 04-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Does nobody have any help with the Coptic word or words EMPATEFR? Right before Pascha in the transcription.

I take it there is no online Coptic lexicon? At least, I sadly couldn't find one....

I have Samuel Mercer's egyptian grammar, but I cannot find a similar word in its tiny lexicon. Is the "EM" a prefix? If you have your lexicon, perhaps look for a PTFR or some derivative with 3 consonants. Egyptian was a semitic langauge like Hebrew and Arabic, so looking up words should be somewhat similar.

Peter Kirby · 04-08-2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

I take it there is no online Coptic lexicon? At least, I sadly couldn't find one....

I have Samuel Mercer's egyptian grammar, but I cannot find a similar word in its tiny lexicon. Is the "EM" a prefix? If you have your lexicon, perhaps look for a PTFR or some derivative with 3 consonants. Egyptian was a semitic langauge like Hebrew and Arabic, so looking up words should be somewhat similar.

If the transcription is correct, then I think that the F is the reflexive pronoun meaning 'he' or 'him'. That would make R a separate word or one conjoined to the one on the next line; however, that word is PASXA if we can assume the initial pi on that line. I have tried looking up all kinds of permutations, and the best fit I've found is assuming that the TE is the word for 'to give'. That leaves us with making something out of EMPA. I still haven't figured it out.

regards,
Peter Kirby

PhilosopherJay · 04-08-2006, 12:02 PM

Hi Roger et al.,

This paragraph from http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/ma...udas/index.htm
describes the content of the manuscipt containing the Gospel of Judas.

The papyrus manuscripts consist of

- a Gnostic codex in Sahidic dialect

containing the lost 'Gospel of Judas' known from history only through Saint Irenaeus (c. 140-202 AD), Bishop of Lyon, the "First Apocalypse of James" and the "Epistle of Peter to Philip"

- the 'Book of Exodus' in Greek
- 'Letters of Paul' in Sahidic dialect and a
- 'Mathematical Treatise' in Greek.

Apparently in the codex containing the Gospel of Judas, there was also a copy of the First Apocalypse of James.

While we are all happy to have a translation of the Gospel of Judas, I am wondering about translations of the other material. It seems to me that a good full translation of the First Apocalypse of James and a good translation of the Letters of Paul is as important as the Gospel of Judas.

Does anyone know when we may expect these to be translated and released?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Excerpts of the English translation are online at the NY Times site in PDF and I have also placed it here in HTML form, for those who (like myself) hate PDF's.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 04-08-2006, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

- a Gnostic codex in Sahidic dialect
containing the lost 'Gospel of Judas' the "First Apocalypse of James" and the "Epistle of Peter to Philip"

- the 'Book of Exodus' in Greek
- 'Letters of Paul' in Sahidic dialect and a
- 'Mathematical Treatise' in Greek.

Apparently in the codex containing the Gospel of Judas, there was also a copy of the First Apocalypse of James.[/I]

While we are all happy to have a translation of the Gospel of Judas, I am wondering about translations of the other material. It seems to me that a good full translation of the First Apocalypse of James and a good translation of the Letters of Paul is as important as the Gospel of Judas.

Does anyone know when we may expect these to be translated and released?

There has been nothing about the other texts. The last three items are rumoured to be in the hands of US art dealer Bruce Ferrini. Online rumour has it that he went bankrupt last year, and has been selling bits of papyrus through eBay since. I know of no way to contact him to ask.

I too want to see these texts published.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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04-07-2006, 08:45 AM	#32
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I was checking back at the site, since yesterday, and find that the complete English text is also available for download from here: http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/l...ptic_text.html Since National Geographic have been so generous as to make the text and translation available, I think we should show our appreciation and go out and buy their risibly inexpensive book ($22). All the best, Roger Pearse

04-07-2006, 04:37 PM	#33
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	I'm just curious does the G.o.J give any hints....elaborate upon Gnostic Crucifixtion theories such as 1) Judas was crucified 2) Simon was crucified 3) "Swoon theory" or 4) Jesus traveled to Kashmir/ Egypt/ Persia? I know that it doesn't seem to directly confirm the Crucifixtion...but is there any hints...or "Esoterism" (cryptic language) that might contribute towards any one of these theories???

04-08-2006, 01:41 AM	#35
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	River, No. best regards, Chris Weimer

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