Howard

Of all the qualities that are ascribed to God, and we are talking the Christian God here, I have the most trouble with omniscience. I gather there are really two concepts at play. One is that God knows everything that happens in the universe all the time. Specifically, he knows what every one of us is thinking at every moment. After all, he has to constantly monitor us for Jesus belief because anyone can die at any second. So what happens if a lifelong believer dies with a little doubt in his mind, or a lifelong doubter dies with a little belief. What's the criteria for salvation anyway? !00% belief? 99%? 51%?

That brings us to the other aspect of omniscience, which is that when God created the universe he knew beforehand when we would die and what we would believe at the time. But there are a number of problems with that idea, the primary one being that we really don't have free will, at least as far as Jesus belief is concerned. Our fate was preordained at creation. Not only that, but some people (like us) were preordained by God to not believe and thus to burn in hell. Why would a benevolent God create people just to make them suffer for all eternity?

Of course, there is the argument that we aren't pre-determined to believe or not believe, that we really do have free will in that regard. Fine, but doesn't that negate the idea of omniscience. That is, God did not know how the universe was going to turn out when he created it. Am I missing something here, or is it all just a tangled web of contradictions?

Jobar

{I}s it all just a tangled web of contradictions?

Bingo.

Believers try to rationalize all this by saying that human free will is so valuable to God that He will even allow us, his much-beloved creations, to go to Hell rather than interfere with our freedom. Well, I am not free to fly through the air like Superman, nor to screw as many women as did John Holmes (and be immune to AIDS in the process.) I damn sure *would* that I could do things like that; but the real world says nay. How is that not interference with my own free will?

Most Christians just avoid thinking about the subject; they wall it off in a little room in their brains labelled "Holy! Do not disturb!" and only open it up on Sundays and religious holidays. For a very long time, the ones who profited from it had sufficient power that pointing out the complete contradiction of an all loving God who keeps a torture chamber sized for billions was a very good way to die unpleasantly. Even today, in many societies it's a death sentence to question the benevolence of Allah. In many locations in the US, it is tantamount to social suicide to state publicly that one is an atheist.

But it still sometimes leaves me stunned and gaping when I meet people who, from all appearances, actually believe this crap.

demoninho

Maybe omniscience is knowing all that happens and has happened, but excludes knowledge of future events?

But I think the bible claims god has knowledge of the future aswell, guessing by all the prophets with divine inspiration appaering in the bible.

net2002

Even today, in many societies it's a death sentence to question the benevolence of Allah.

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here is a quote from a moslim site

'Are we Muslims allowed to raise questions on religious matters?' There are many Muslims who carry the understanding that the message of Islam requires believers to accept faith and its requirements without questioning. They believe that Islam calls its adherents to have what is called 'blind faith'. There are basically two arguments presented from the Qur'an to support this understanding: 1) The Qur'an mentions in the very beginning that true believers are those who believe 'bil-ghayb' (2:3); the expression 'bil-ghayb' is translated by some to mean 'blind faith'. 2) The other reason mentioned from the Qur'an is that the book of Allah, it is claimed, discourages believers from asking questions. It is mentioned in the Qur'an, for instance, thus:

O believers,do not ask about things which if revealed to you would cause you trouble. (5:101)

We shall see from the correct understanding of the two passages that the book of Allah is not discouraging Muslims in either of these verses from asking genuine questions. However, quite apart from that, it is worth considering that we are told in the Qur'an that when Allah Almighty announced His decision to create man, an independent creation, Khalifah (commonly translated as vicegerent), the angels, who are normally considered as a creation that would most obediently acquiesce to all commands of Allah, raised a few questions. The tone of those questions suggests that initially they were not quite appreciating fully the divine scheme. Allah Almighty, it seems from the Qur'anic description of the occasion, instead of admonishing them for having dared to raise those questions, went ahead with the task of providing them with satisfactory answers. (See Qur'an 2:30-33).

wordsmyth

Wouldn't God's omniscience preclude his/her/its own free will?

It would seem that an omniscient being would be incapable of doing anything that it had not foreseen it would do. It's (God's) every action would be dictated by it's (God's) own omniscience, thus precluding freewill.

So, not only is the concept of omniscience a problem for human freewill, but divine freewill as well.

Cross Examiner

Mr. Howard, you write:

This troubled me once. In fact, Philosoft and I had a discussion about the reconciliation of God's omniscience and man's self-determinism (free will) recently. He said God's foreknowledge of the Chicago Cub's winning the World Series precluded that the Cub's could possibly do otherwise (not win). A convicting argument no doubt that would imply that free will is an illusion if God is omniscient. Or, God is not really omniscient at all and we are free. So either God is not omniscient or man is not free, yet the Bible teaches both. Contradiction! Right? Not at all. It boils down to a matter of perspective, because there are two perspectives of time, the finite and infinite (since we know time is a created dimension), man's and God's perspective. Philosoft hasn't responded or countered, you may if you want. For the visualization (you might have to read a few posts before the last to gain context) of what the heck I mean, you can even post, just go here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...06#post1065906

Priceless. I love that: monitor for Jesus belief!

A believer will be saved, doubts and all, who really believed and confessed as much (Romans 10:9-10). You don't openly confess that which you don't believe (authentication). Once God has saved you, you cannot be separated from Him (Romans 8:38). If you turn away later in life, fully away as Charles Templeton did, are you still saved, were you actually ever saved (Matt 12:31, Mark 3:29, Acts 7:51, Heb 6:4, Heb 10:26)? Fortunately, I don't have to make that decision. I worry about myself and remain willing teach those that remain open, who do not preclude God or Jesus Christ but continue to seek the evidence, to balance out their views.

Am I certain? 100%? No, I have my doubts according to my nature as a scientific and skeptical mind. I am insatiably curious and the Bible doesn't answer all my questions. So, I am about 95% confident that I have concluded correctly based on the evidence I have; that what I believe is rational and rooted in reality. I trust (faith) God for the other 5% that is unanswered, so I follow, doubts and all. A believer will be saved but a follower is truly blessed, experiences the benefits of maturity, and will experience what it is to conform to the image of Christ, an amazing transformation.

A lifelong doubter, a thief executed by Rome, died alongside Jesus of Nazareth and evinced a little belief in Jesus as the Christ. Jesus Christ promised him salvation, that very day, nonetheless (Luke 23:43). There is a principle in Scripture that commands each to worry about his own fate, not that of another. Christ said as much to Peter (John 21:20-22). You don't have to worry about justice, there is no oversight for God. There is no injustice in God. Shall not the Judge of all the Earth do right (Genesis 18:25)? Thus, it is not productive to wonder who is saved or to what quantitative criteria God will judge the soul of man against. You may judge yourself qualitatively, however, to know where you stand. You must believe (John 3:16, Romans 5:6), and if you believe, you will want to obey the commands of Christ (1 John 2:3-6, John 14:15, 2 Corinthians 5:17), and to continually renew your mind in Christ (Romans 12:2).

You�re touching upon the implications of Romans 9; a tough chapter, arguably the harshest in the Bible. Though I add that anything purporting to be the truth cannot soft-peddle the harshness of reality in order to gain converts, or it is no truth at all. To answer your inference, yes, God did know your/my final destination (even hell) when he created you/me, yet he created you/me nonetheless. And here come the questions...

Au contraire. Man's responsibility to believe on the name of Christ is not lessened by God's sovereignty, each has a chance, each has a choice, within God's greater plan. No one ends up where they did not want to.

Known, yes, preordained, not exactly. Romans 9 does say Pharaoh (Ramses II?) was brought up for the purpose of God making his name known to the world at the time, through God's utter humbling (Pharaoh was God, remember?) of the greatest King in the world at the time. God actually hardened his heart against change/repentance...in order to execute His overarching, sovereign plan. What in the world!?! That's not fair! Who are you, o man, as the clay vessel to say to God, as the potter; "Why did you make me like this?" Or, who resists God's sovereign will? Can a clay vessel challenge the potter as to why he made some for noble and still others for common use? We know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart repeatedly before God set him irrevocably on the path of unrepentance. Ergo, man executes some free will while God still executes His plan with any intervention justified since there is no higher court than His. No one to appeal to above God.

Not at all. God is giving you opportunity upon opportunity. Right now, God is calling you to repentance and belief in His Son for your salvation. He is merciful and not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). I am also open to any (just send a private note for email address etc.) who genuinely want to know how to be saved but haven't heard a cogent argument/presentation of the Gospel yet. I won't waste my time with the entrenched atheist that precludes God's existence or the legitimacy of Scripture, the seeker is always welcome.
As a man think himself, so is he (Proverbs 23:7). How you envision yourself is of your own choosing. Can you say God has not extended opportunity to you? What about right now? You have free will to at least explore the evidence further. Will you?

Hell is not a fiery pit with red devils with pointy pitchforks, it is not a cosmic torture chamber, and such notions (Dante et al.) arose from a misunderstanding of the Aramaic mind (we can develop this as interest warrants). Hell is humane treatment for the totally independent mind. The real hell is for fallen (unrepentant, unregenerate) man to be forced to endure a holy God and his presence for all eternity. How cruel! Can God coerce man into loving Him and wanting to be near Him? Not at all. Quarantine. Separate them. The most benevolent thing God could do is to give you yourself, if that�s all really you want.

Hopefully the above/referenced point clarified this some for you. I'm all about building bridges.

God did not know how the universe would turn out now? Is that in one of the OT books I didn't read thoroughly enough? There are no contradictions. A quick poll: do you want there to be contradictions?

A quick note: I reiterate that I am not interested in engaging the entrenched or belligerent, honest seekers can have my time though. The seekers suspect this all may still be true, despite their doubts, I am here for you as a resource. You know who you are .

EGGO

I don't know why he has freewill in the first place if his thoughts are never-changing...

DMB

I don't know who the "we" are who know this. Can you please spell out what you mean by this? It looks to me at first sight like a classic cop-out.

Cross Examiner

DMB:

No problem. Thanks to Mr. Einstein "we" understand time less as an abstract measurement tool than a tangible part of the physical universe (ergo part of the creation, assuming God is, for the sake of my argument). In any case, the reference to time was a parenthetical thought only, not significant to the issues at hand (please refer to my original post in this thread for clarification, as needed). The main point was that God, by traditional descripiton in Scripture, is outside of time, and what then be the subsequent implications of such to God's omniscience and Man's free will. Was that all you wanted to discuss? Agreement is the exception amongst a group of opinionated sophisticates! Enjoy your day.

Respectfully,
BGiC

joedad

What exactly were you expecting from Philosft? Is your claim that something can be outside of time simply a matter of personal revelation, and therefore religiously axiomatic? If so, perhaps that's why Philosoft hasn't responded.

As for the existence of hells and heavens, I could think of no worse punishment for someone like myself than to be banished to a heaven for an eternity.

edit:

And when you state:are you stating that entrenched and/or belligerent persons are not honest, or is that merely a poor choice of words?