Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 12-09-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Oy! Adam and Eve are symbolic representations of the the human race... the Hebrew word Adam means Mankind. It is an allegory, a parable. There was no such person Adam or Eve. Not even the most serious Jews think they were real people. It is an invention of the ignorant pagan Romans who took over the leadership of the Roman Church.

Paul most certainly thought that Adam was historical.

Quote:

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

kcdad · 12-09-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Oy! Adam and Eve are symbolic representations of the the human race... the Hebrew word Adam means Mankind. It is an allegory, a parable. There was no such person Adam or Eve. Not even the most serious Jews think they were real people. It is an invention of the ignorant pagan Romans who took over the leadership of the Roman Church.

Paul most certainly thought that Adam was historical.

Quote:

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Who the hell was Paul? He was certainly not a serious Jew. He was a Roman. First and last he was a Roman. Whether Paul believed Adam was a real person or not is irrelevant. Christians supposedly don't worship Paul. Paul had no experience with Jesus or his teachings as seen in the conflict between himself and James and Peter. As seen by Silas' abandonment of him. Paul invented his own religion.

show_no_mercy · 12-09-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Paul most certainly thought that Adam was historical.

Who the hell was Paul? He was certainly not a serious Jew. He was a Roman. First and last he was a Roman. Whether Paul believed Adam was a real person or not is irrelevant. Christians supposedly don't worship Paul. Paul had no experience with Jesus or his teachings as seen in the conflict between himself and James and Peter. As seen by Silas' abandonment of him. Paul invented his own religion.

Yes, Paul invented his own religion. This religion is called Christianity. The only thing "Jewish" about Christianity is its use of Jewish scripture, albeit in an offensive, bastardized, non-Jewish way.

kcdad · 12-09-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Who the hell was Paul? He was certainly not a serious Jew. He was a Roman. First and last he was a Roman. Whether Paul believed Adam was a real person or not is irrelevant. Christians supposedly don't worship Paul. Paul had no experience with Jesus or his teachings as seen in the conflict between himself and James and Peter. As seen by Silas' abandonment of him. Paul invented his own religion.

Yes, Paul invented his own religion. This religion is called Christianity. The only thing "Jewish" about Christianity is its use of Jewish scripture, albeit in an offensive, bastardized, non-Jewish way.

I agree. Peter and James called their assemblies "followers of the way", NOT Christians.

What some of us are trying to do is revive (resurrect, if you will) the original "Followers of the Way"; those who are followers of the teachings of Jesus.

show_no_mercy · 12-09-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Yes, Paul invented his own religion. This religion is called Christianity. The only thing "Jewish" about Christianity is its use of Jewish scripture, albeit in an offensive, bastardized, non-Jewish way.

I agree. Peter and James called their assemblies "followers of the way"

Or

Ebionites.

kcdad · 12-09-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

I agree. Peter and James called their assemblies "followers of the way"

Or

Ebionites.

That is what the Romans and Greeks called them...

show_no_mercy · 12-09-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Or

Ebionites.

That is what the Romans and Greeks called them...

"Ebionite" is a Latinized version of a Hebrew word ("ebion" is Hebrew for "poor"). They might have called themselves Ebionim. In the 2nd century Irenaeus makes fun of their self-designation and says their namesake reflects the poverty of their beliefs.

spamandham · 12-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Wow... couldn't get out of Genesis... well that was too easy. I dare you to find any serious scholar who thinks that the stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel (which is part of the same story), or Noah are meant to be factual, historical and about real, living, specific, human beings... I don't know what your problem with Abram and Moses is...

I understand all this. ...and the exact same arguments that apply to all these allegorical/fictional characters apply to Jesus.

I am underimpressed, to say the least, by arguments akin to "serious Biblical scholars...blah blah blah".

Quote:

Adam and Eve are symbolic representations of the the human race... the Hebrew word Adam means Mankind. It is an allegory, a parable.

...and "Jesus Christ" means "YHWH's annointed salvation", which just happens to be the role Jesus plays. Ancient Jews had a habit of naming allegorical characters after the role they played. This continued when the NT was penned.

Quote:

The challenge is to find examples of these fictional people in other sources...

Why? The Jewish scriptures are the *most* relevant source, since the NT was written by Jews. There is every reason to think the NT writers woudl follow familiar Jewish approaches.

Quote:

Do I really need to go through The Bible, allegory by parable, and explain it all to you?

No. But you might try that approach on the Gospels and see whether a HJ is really necessary, or even helpful, at all. What makes you think that the Jews wrote one way in the OT and a different way in the NT?

kcdad · 12-09-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I am underimpressed, to say the least, by arguments akin to "serious Biblical scholars...blah blah blah".

ok... how about: "serious scholars of ancient texts" blah blah blah?

Kapyong · 12-09-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

and yet... no examples?

Many many examples have been given before.

Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Tammuz, Job, Hercules, Isis, Dionysus, Bacchus, Aesculapius, Demeter and Kore, William Tell, King Arthur, John Frun, Molly Pitcher.

There are endless examples.

Pretending you've never heard of ANY makes you look a complete idiot.

K.

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