Freethought & Rationalism Archive

archibald · 10-15-2011, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

One wonders why they bothered to become genuine followers and didn't just start a book club on wednesday evenings to discuss the latest fiction.

But that's my whole point with the sexual analogy here. In traditional cultures sexual arousal is the yardstick for truth. Arousal is a mystical experience literally controlling and possessing the subject. When we start hearing about 'the Holy Spirit' moving the ancient Christian 'prophets' or early descriptions of their 'love feast' or speak about the holy 'bridal chamber' it's all sexual in nature because they thought differently than we do. They were 'moved' by the truth in the same way this guy getting a lap dance has been led to the conclusion that he wants the woman on top of him. http://www.kenyanlist.com/kls-listing-show.php?id=51268

It may be an interesting point, but I still don't know what it has to do with the topic of whether the writer of a religious text was likely to have believed his purportedly recent leader/prophet existed.

Some Kenyan examples might be useful.

stephan huller · 10-15-2011, 01:08 AM

I don't know why you find this hard to understand. My point is simply that traditional people/ancient people are like the Kenyans I know (and who happen to come from a particularly silly part of Kenya). Just ask any Kenyan from Nairobi or the more sophisticated part of the country what they think of the Giriama. Here is a description which includes their belief in witch doctors to this day http://www.justkenya.org/kenya/kilif...fi-giriama.asp

In any event, my point was simply to say that the ancient people who believed it was possible that God came down to Jerusalem to judge the wicked Jews for turning their back on him had more in common with these people than us (or at least me). Remember this was two thousand years ago. Here is a traditional Giriama wedding with a witch doctor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRpAC...eature=related

another giriama video demonstrating their favorite pursuits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2tdh...eature=related

archibald · 10-15-2011, 02:49 AM

The only thing I'm still having difficulty understanding is what it has to do with the OP. I suspect not much.

Here's something that might bring it back on track. Do these Kenyans have any stories about a religious figure who was supposed to have lived and died about 30 years ago in the region? If so, what indicators are there that they believe he was non-existent?

Which part of the OP did you not understand?

Iskander · 10-15-2011, 02:57 AM

This thread –and others- shows that rationality and all that does not exist; it is all the forgery of humourless enterprising farmers.

N.B.-- Don’t shoot, I’ll go away quietly:wave::wave::wave::wave:

archibald · 10-15-2011, 03:36 AM

This thread should stick to the obvious. The simple observation is that the word rational is a coded anagram of 'antioral'. Need I say more?

maryhelena · 10-15-2011, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

One wonders why they bothered to become genuine followers and didn't just start a book club on wednesday evenings to discuss the latest fiction.

But that's my whole point with the sexual analogy here. In traditional cultures sexual arousal is the yardstick for truth. Arousal is a mystical experience literally controlling and possessing the subject. When we start hearing about 'the Holy Spirit' moving the ancient Christian 'prophets' or early descriptions of their 'love feast' or speak about the holy 'bridal chamber' it's all sexual in nature because they thought differently than we do. They were 'moved' by the truth in the same way this guy getting a lap dance has been led to the conclusion that he wants the woman on top of him. http://www.kenyanlist.com/kls-listing-show.php?id=51268

I am amazed, shattered, that the link to this video - with it's related sexual comments, has been allowed to remain on this thread.

No, I'm not a prude re matters sexual. However, what needs to be brought into this 'debate' is the huge danger of allowing the human sexual drive free reign. Sexual arousal the yardstick for truth - heaven help us! Like everything else that man is capable of - it has to be controlled. Excess is not 'truth' - it is more akin to a failure to comprehend dangers - both to oneself and to others. Ancient customs be damned - this is the 21st century!

From the rape capital of the world.

Quote:

A bizarre belief among many African black men that sex with a virgin -- even a child or baby -- can cure HIV/AIDS is fueling what is already one of the highest child sexual exploitation rates in the world.

According to the latest report by South Africa's Police Service, children are the victims of 41 percent of all rapes and attempted rapes reported in the country. Over 15 percent of all reported rapes are against children under 11, and another 26 percent against children 12-17. For the year 2000, some 58 children were raped or the victims of rape attempts in South Africa every single day.

The trend is worsening. Babies as young as only a few months old are being raped almost daily. Many black South African men infected with AIDS erroneously believe that by having sex with a virgin -- even a baby -- they will be cured of AIDS or their HIV infection.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=12139

As for Kenya (where I lived for 10 years).

Quote:

Kenya is home to one of the world’s harshest HIV and AIDS epidemics. An estimated 1.5 million people are living with HIV; around 1.2 million children have been orphaned by AIDS; and in 2009 80,000 people died from AIDS-related illnesses.

http://www.avert.org/hiv-aids-kenya.htm

Talk re the 'mystical experience' of human sexual activity needs to be counterbalanced by the real dangers such activity can generate.

Sheshbazzar · 10-15-2011, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't view myself as an anthropologist but you have to get into the heads of ancient people in order to make sense of the past. Being familiar with living ancient cultures wherever they exist is a good way of doing just that. Assuming that people were always just the same as us leads to the mistaken assumption that most ancient people were intellectually capable of high level of critical reasoning skills. Continuing the Kenyan analogy, another significant cultural difference is that east Africans like big asses on woman. They have a term for this gari kubwa which literally means 'big car' (gari like most Swahili words are a corruption of another language in this case the English 'car' cmp. money = peysa, mesa = table from contact with Portuguese; there are a great number of Arabic words too kitab etc.) When you are standing around with these guys a woman you and I wouldn't take a second look at becomes a complete distraction especially if her hind portions are as big as a car or van http://www.kenyanlist.com/kls-listing-show.php?id=51268

I believe stephan's original points were all related to the sexual practices and mores between ADULTS and how they impacted upon religious beliefs, and texts.
Certainly we should be able to consider that ancient sexual ideas and behavior did have some level of influence on the content and linguistics of the Judeao-Christian religions and their texts.

Many scholars find the Eve & Serpent to to be based upon thinly veiled sexual innuendo.
Take away that story, and Christianity would not even have any rationale left for its existence.

Chili · 10-16-2011, 03:55 PM

Some shocking statistics in this tread that I would rather not know about and I am much more interested in telling that those so called scholars should know that the serpent and Eve are the exact same image and wonder if we have the right to point fingers at anyone here. Point to remember is that 'the woman' was never banned from Eden and so who do you think it was that Adam favored and called her Eve?

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10-15-2011, 01:08 AM	#22
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't know why you find this hard to understand. My point is simply that traditional people/ancient people are like the Kenyans I know (and who happen to come from a particularly silly part of Kenya). Just ask any Kenyan from Nairobi or the more sophisticated part of the country what they think of the Giriama. Here is a description which includes their belief in witch doctors to this day http://www.justkenya.org/kenya/kilif...fi-giriama.asp In any event, my point was simply to say that the ancient people who believed it was possible that God came down to Jerusalem to judge the wicked Jews for turning their back on him had more in common with these people than us (or at least me). Remember this was two thousand years ago. Here is a traditional Giriama wedding with a witch doctor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRpAC...eature=related another giriama video demonstrating their favorite pursuits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2tdh...eature=related

10-15-2011, 02:49 AM	#23
archibald Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,305	The only thing I'm still having difficulty understanding is what it has to do with the OP. I suspect not much. Here's something that might bring it back on track. Do these Kenyans have any stories about a religious figure who was supposed to have lived and died about 30 years ago in the region? If so, what indicators are there that they believe he was non-existent? Which part of the OP did you not understand?

10-15-2011, 02:57 AM	#24
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	This thread –and others- shows that rationality and all that does not exist; it is all the forgery of humourless enterprising farmers. N.B.-- Don’t shoot, I’ll go away quietly:wave::wave::wave::wave:

10-15-2011, 03:36 AM	#25
archibald Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,305	This thread should stick to the obvious. The simple observation is that the word rational is a coded anagram of 'antioral'. Need I say more?

10-16-2011, 03:55 PM	#28
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Some shocking statistics in this tread that I would rather not know about and I am much more interested in telling that those so called scholars should know that the serpent and Eve are the exact same image and wonder if we have the right to point fingers at anyone here. Point to remember is that 'the woman' was never banned from Eden and so who do you think it was that Adam favored and called her Eve?

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