Hex

Lars, I'm not talking about the Exodus here, I'm talking about the plagues and -why- the Pharoh is unnamed. If I talk about somethjing that happened to 'the president' in the past tense, which one am I talking about? George W? Clinton? Lincoln?

You immediately jump to Akhenaten, which is fine. He's an anomoly (and, of course, he fits with your revised timeline, but I don't think that's valid at the moment for this discussion.) which makes him a great target, especially with the destruction of many of his records. But I do have to point this out:

"I think generally most would say" ... Hedge much? :Cheeky:

Is this perhaps your way of saying that the plagues might have impaired the military and economic infrastructure of Egypt? Wouldn't the Hebrews want to make some note about who was Pharoh at this time of such great triumph?

But -why- didn't the Egyptians, especially the ones away from where the Pharoh's heart was being hardened, make some mention of how all the cattle just keeled over one day?

Hex

You have no proof that Akhenaten became a YHWHst. And we know about him from some temples and buildings that somehow escaped desctruction. Some were not totally torn down, but were reworked to show another pharoh in Akhenaten's place. Please.

And blood left from that period shouldn't be at all visible anymore. Traces might still exist in rock crevices and such, but I'd wonder with periodic sandstorms and the like if any of that could have survived 'natural sandblasting'

So wait, his father was Pharoh when the plagues were happeneing, so because later in his reign, Akhenaten became a monotheistic heretic, they destroyed records about his father too? You're losing me here, Lars.

So ... You're just making all this up, aren't you? (Conjecture is the same as making up as far as I'm concerned, BTW.) There -is- no evidence that you can produce that would indicate that the plagues ever happened, right?

But, even still, you're admitting that there's no data for or against the plagues outside the Biblical account, right? Well, except for the lack of data, which could be significant in the archaeological realm ... :Cheeky:

But we're not talking about not beleiveing you on this, we're talking about beleiving who knows how many scribes that might have tampered with written words, and who knows how many people who passed this on through oral tradition -if- it did happen and the Bible/Torah is the only existing source.

Ever play the 'telephone game'? :wave:

Larsguy47

ROFL! :Cheeky: Not actual "blood" but the depiction of blood on a doorpost in some of the artwork, apparently. But I haven't found that reference, and it's probably debated that that is actually what it was. And whether I have "proof" or not that Akhenaten was a YHWHist is a matter of interpretation. You see, if I give you a Biblical reference that indicates that he was, then all you'll do is say it's made and it's not "proof." So whether you have "proof" or a challenged historical record, are two different things. But a reference to something, even if challenged is not the same as a completely non-substantiated claim. There's a difference. So I do have a Biblical reference per my interpretation that would make Akhenaten a YHWHist. But since the Bible is not "proof" in this case, being the text under challenge anyway, it matters not. If you believe the Bible, then he was a YHWHist. If not, then there's no more proof of than than there was an Exodus. So, there you have it.

His father would not be recording this since he died in the Red Sea. This all happened in a short period of time. And most records are related to major events like wars and conquests, etc. Further, if this was embarrassing to the Egyptians they were not likely to brag about it. So there are lots of reasons why Amenhotep III, if he were inscribing walls documenting this at the time might not have noted this. But Akhenaten would have, probably did, and later the opposers to the Jews and Akhenaten destroyed the records.

Yes, that's right, I don't have a video of any of this so PLEASE don't believe it until they invent a time machine and you can go back in time and see this for yourself.

No direct reference, but Akhenaten's behavior, the change in economy, the use of bricks during this time, the Amarna Letter, the archaeological dating for the fall of Jericho by Kenyon, etc. all are compatible with this event occurring at this time, but perhaps as significantly, there is nothing that contradicts this. You have three levels of "evidence". Evidence that directly contradicts something; evidence that is inconclusive, that is, neither contradictory nor confirmatory, and evidence that is completely confirmatory.

For instance, the lack of any evidence found so far for the Jews' 40-year trek in the wilderness is not "contradictory," it is "inconclusive". Akhenaten's convertion toward monotheism likewise, is not necessarily "confirmatory, but it's not contradictory. Shishak's inscription about this invasion of Israel, though, is considered confirmatory since it is more direct. But actually, inconclusive is good because it is better than contradictory. Contradictory is like ZERO, inconclusive is like 1 and confirmatory is like 2. You get a point where there's no contradiction.


Yes. So we have to go on the other evidence in this case.

LG47

3DJay

Akhenaten and the Aten Religion

Aten had a strong presence at the end of the reign of Amenophis (Amenhotep) III.

Amenhotep III, the Ninth King of Egypt's 18th Dynasty

The priesthood of Amen now dominates Egypt. Amenhotep III seeks to curb their power by strengthening the position of the minor god, Aten.


Aten didn't originate with Akhenaten, he just expanded on it.


Peace

Larsguy47

Thanks for this information.

Apparently Akhenaten adopts the concept of Aten and makes it something unique under his rule. Still it is interesting there is no anthropomorphic or zoomorophic image associated with Aten, as with Amun and the other gods.

"It is important to note that the solar devotion of this sovereign is very different to that which will be Akhenaten’s. " http://www.osirisnet.net/docu/akhenat/e_akhen1.htm

Here is Ra:



And the god Amenhophis III primarily worshipped, AMUN:


But here is ATEN, definitely different:


I don't think the concept of what Aten fully was is completely understood. But the conceptial reference to WHO this God is, what he does, and how Akhenaten loved him and felt about him has been compared to the concept David gives to Yhwh in the Psalms. So in that sense, they could be considered the same personage or have the same "identity" for the worshipper, much as I consider "Allah" to be the same god to the muslims as Yhwh, and Yhwh the same god for both Christians and Jews, though some Christians believe their God is a Trinity (monotheistic tri-god, but not Jehovah's witnesses).


Interesting. Thanks for the references!
LG47

Hex

I find it really annoying that when I brought up scholarly works about the Aten-worship bit, you ignored it Lars, but when 3DJay puts up links to -websites- (Thanks for that BTW, 3DJay), you accept it. Go figure.

Anyhow, This -still- doesn't answer why the ISREALITES don't name the Pharoh. Got any ideas on -that-, since it's one of the primary things I was looking for in this thread?

*sigh* Again, Lars, you amaze me.

Do you actually think that the Pharoh -really- spent time to dictate out what kind of historical information would be recorded? As much as Pharohs were monarchs, they still ran bureaucracies. Scribe would have been putting stuff down even as the Pharoh and his army were being crushed by a wall of water, if it happened that way. They'd be collecting information and doing writings for continuity. The Pharaoh need not oversee -any- of it if he doesn't want. And, in all actuality, it would be impossible for the pharoh to be at all the places the scribes were working in order to oversee and direct them themselves.

And realize that Ahkenaten -became- a heratic. At first he was accepted and 'normal' by pharohic standards. Why rip out history that doesn't specifically pertain to him when it isn't heretical? :huh:

And that's what I'm after Lars. I'm trying to find out why iot's so hard to get this 'evidence'. You've invented a timeline that fits with criteria you like so that you get a story that works for you. Your story doesn't work for me, because of the way you've cherry-picked your data.

So, I need other evidence. And what I want now is the 'why' of where that other evidence went, if the biblical account is true. So, drop away your conjecture, drop away your timeline and answer two simple questions.

Why is there no record of the biblical plagues in Egypt?

Why did the Isrealites not name the Pharoh of Exodus?

If the book is supposed to be a factual account, the Pharoh's name is a critical bit of information that -should- be there. And, if this stuff happened, not even a heretical Pharoh being erased would have gotten rid of even a casual mention of the plagues hitting so violently, spectacularly, and in such rapid succession.

All I want to know is why ... :huh:

Larsguy47

Sorry... Not intentional. :redface:

I already told you the Bible can be used to confirm who the pharoah of the Exodus is. It doesn't name the pharoah, but it doesn't name the pharoah in the time of Joseph either. My feeling is that the Bible goes out of its way to create a complex chronology to protect itself from revisionism or to hide certain chronologies or details. That's WHY it might not have been mentioned or HIDDEN as it is here:

My comments are in red: This is the entire chapter 19 of Isaiah:

1 The pronouncement against Egypt: Look! Jehovah is riding on a swift cloud and coming into Egypt. And the valueless gods of Egypt will certainly quiver because of him, and the very heart of Egypt will melt in the midst of it.

A prophecy about Egypt written in retrospection. This is about the coming of the Ten Plagues.


2 “And I will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt must become bewildered in the midst of it, and I shall confuse its own counsel. And they will be certain to resort to the valueless gods and to the charmers and to the spirit mediums and to the professional foretellers of events. 4 And I will deliver up Egypt into the hand of a hard master, and strong will be the king that will rule over them,” is the utterance of the [true] Lord, Jehovah of armies.

The confusion Akhenaten caused when he make monotheism the state religion. Egyptian vs Egyptian. One god versus polytheism.

5 And the water will certainly be dried up from the sea, and the river itself will become parched and actually run dry. 6 And the rivers must stink; the Nile canals of Egypt must become low and parched. The reed and the rush themselves must molder. 7 The bare places by the Nile River, at the mouth of the Nile River, and every seedland of the Nile River will dry up. It will certainly be driven away, and it will be no more. 8 And the fishers will have to mourn, and all those casting fishhooks into the Nile River must express sorrow, and even those spreading fishing nets upon the surface of the water will actually fade away. 9 And the workers in carded flax must become ashamed; also the loom workers on white fabrics. 10 And her weavers must become crushed, all the wage workers grieved in soul.

The nile was turned to blood.


11 The princes of Zo´an are indeed foolish. As regards the wise ones of Phar´aoh’s counselors, [their] counsel is something unreasonable. How will YOU men say to Phar´aoh: “I am the son of wise ones, the son of kings of ancient time”? 12 Where, then, are they—the wise men of yours—that they may now tell you and that they may know what Jehovah of armies has counseled concerning Egypt?

There was competition between Jannes and Jamboress and Moses. They counseled the wrong things in opposition to Yhwh.


13 The princes of Zo´an have acted foolishly, the princes of Noph have been deceived, the keymen of her tribes have caused Egypt to wander about. 14 Jehovah himself has mingled in the midst of her the spirit of disconcertedness; and they have caused Egypt to wander about in all its work, just as someone drunk is made to wander about in his vomit. 15 And Egypt will not come to have any work that the head or the tail, the shoot or the rush, can do.

Yhwh is confusing the counsel of the Egyptians at this time.

16 In that day Egypt will become like women, and it will certainly tremble and be in dread because of the waving of the hand of Jehovah of armies which he is waving against it. 17 And the ground of Judah must become to Egypt a cause for reeling. Everybody to whom one mentions it is in dread because of the counsel of Jehovah of armies that he is counseling against him.

The Jews were a cause of trembling in Egypt before they left.


18 In that day there will prove to be five cities in the land of Egypt speaking the language of Ca´naan and swearing to Jehovah of armies. The City of Tearing Down will one [city] be called.

Now, this is very interesting. We know from the Amarna letters that there was great interaction of the Canaanites with the Egyptians. After the Ten Plagues, cities of the Canaanites in Egypt were prophesied to start worshipping Yhwh.

19 In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary.

KEY. When Egypt converts to Yhwh, a specific location of his altar in Egypt will be effected. That is in the midst of Egypt, meaning in the middle of Egypt and a "pillar beside it's boundary." When Akhenaten built his city to Aten, Akhetaten, he placed boundary stela around the city to keep out false gods. That could be one interpretation of the "boundary". Or it could mean the general boundary line between Upper and Lower Egypt is where this altar to Yhwh will be built. Either way, it is fulfilled quite nicely by the city to Aten Akhenaten built in the "midst" of Egypt.

As you can see, Akhetaten is in near the very middle of Egypt, near the boundary between Upper and Lower Egypt if there was a general line drawn to evenly divide the two.

20 And it must prove to be for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt; for they will cry out to Jehovah because of the oppressors, and he will send them a SAVIOR, even a grand one, who will actually deliver them.

Of course, the Egyptians are oppressing the Jews and who is a greater SAVIOR in the Bible than Moses in connection with Egypt? "A grand one, who will deliver them." Who delivers the Jews out of Egypt? MOSES. This tells us this is about the Exodus.

21 And Jehovah will certainly become known to the Egyptians; and the Egyptians must know Jehovah in that day, and they must render sacrifice and gift and must make a vow to Jehovah and pay it.

Again, how would the Egyptians know about Yhwh? Would Jehovah's witnesses be preaching and handing out the "Watchtower" and "Awake!"? Will Benny Hinn have his TV program going? No. Egypt gets a personal witness via the Ten Plagues that occur! Based upon that, many Egyptians would now fear Yhwh and pay tribute to him, the leader of those being none other than the next king and queen of Egypt, Akhenaten and Nefertitti, his wife. This confirms that Akhenaten's form of Atenism was approved and accepted by Yhwh. This is confirmed by the text comparisons of how Akhenaten spoke of his God, inspired by holy spirit and how David did the same thing. The texts are so similar that some believe they must be related to one another. New Chronology wants to move Akhenaten down to the time of David it is so profound! So the details might be different, but their concept of their god as inspired by Yhwh himself is the same!

22 And Jehovah will certainly deal Egypt a blow. There will be a dealing of a blow and a healing; and they must return to Jehovah, and he must let himself be entreated by them and must heal them.

So obvious. When did God deal Egypt a blow? The Ten plagues! But after that blow, there was supposed to be "healing", people turning to fear Yhwh and pay him tribute and vows. That's what happened, including to the new pharoah, Akhenaten. So this was fulfilled.

23 In that day there will come to be a highway out of Egypt to As·syr´i·a, and As·syr´i·a will actually come into Egypt, and Egypt into As·syr´i·a; and they will certainly render service, Egypt with As·syr´i·a.

The message route between Assyria/Mitanni and Egypt is well known. This route was mentioned in some of the Amarna texts. But it certainly represents a time when the region of Assyria and Egypt would be very close allies and have great communication. Which they did. This was not always the case, but it was very typical of this wondrous time for Egypt, the Amarna Period.

24 In that day Israel will come to be the third with Egypt and with As·syr´i·a, namely, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 because Jehovah of armies will have blessed it, saying: “Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, As·syr´i·a, and my inheritance, Israel.”

Again, you have very close relations between Assyria and Egypt during this time, with Assyria apparently likewise joining Akhenaten in worship of Yhwh along with Israel. Of note here, though, since who is mentioned first indicates rank, Egypt and Assyria outrank Israel in preference here. Of course, we know why, because the Jews had rebelled even after seeing all these great works, these great works that had Egypt and Assyria now worshipping Yhwh, at least for a short time. So they are mentioned last, but all three at this time are supposed to have the same god. Now when else did that happen but during the only time in Egyptian history where the state religion was "monotheistic" and suppressive of the other gods of Egypt?

So as far as the Bible is concerned? My own interpretation, the Bible confirms who ruled over Egypt right after the Exodus. It was Akhenaten. But here we have a cryptic reference that sounds like a prophecy and still no specific mention of the specific pharoah. Thus, again, some definite reason why the Bible writers, inspired by Yhwh, chose not to give that too much of a definition.

Even when Pharaoh Shishak is mentioned, his interaction is confuscated in the chronology of the Bible. That is, it is dated in year 5 of Rehoboam, and mentioned after some events after Solomon's death. It's a separate record that is out of context with the chronology of Chronicles but the details of the invasion confirm this was still during the rule of Solomon. Thus this is deliberate, and there are other examples where the Bible tries to distract from some of the absolute chronology. My suspicion is that it allowed the Bible to be written and distributed even while the nations were revising their chronology. IF the chronology in the Bible is not well understood then it is less of a target for governments to suppress it.

We of course, otherwise can confirm Akhenaten as the pharaoh of the Exodus by Manetho who identifies "Amenophis" as the one associated with the Exodus, though there were revisions of the story by the Egyptians, which is only natural. Governments always have to lie to maintain their PR. The biggest lying organization in the world is the CIA and we like them for that. We expect them to be convincing! So there are apparent Egyptian references to the Jews leaving, but they made it seem they were undesirables and lepers and all that and so they were kicked out instead of being delivered by their God. This might have been even more of a reason why Akhenaten, who had joined the Jews in worship of Yhwh was completely eradicated as much as possible in later Egyptian records. Even Rameses used their family name rather than Amenhotep, even though Rameses was related to the Amenhotep family. Akhenaten was just the worst nightmare for the Egyptians wanting their false gods, especially the money-loving priests.

We also can confirm it was Akhenaten by the chronology of various means, as you know.

So it's no longer an issue of wondering who ruled after the Exodus. We can see that it was Akhenaten. As to why the Bible makes its chronology so cryptic? I think because it protects the Bible against being banned or destroyed and also because it was meant as an "insider" book anyway. With secrets to be understood by insiders and confusing to outsiders.

It worked. Insiders like me can see how to apply things and how to identify and confirm when the Exodus took place, and outsiders are confused or rejecting of those applications.

Hope that answers your question.

NOW, remember, since you asked, you can never challenge this interpretation, you can only disagree with it or reject it.

LG47

RED DAVE

From Larsguy47:
Yeah, I guess the Messiah would have some inside information, and since you don't ... . So we have:

No evidence of 2 1/2 million people wandering in the desert. No people.

No evidence of plagues. No plagues.

RED DAVE

Amedeo

Remember? the plague walked away. So, why make a monument to it?

Larsguy47

There might not be evidence in the whilderness left, but there is circumstantial evidence of the plague and the death of Amenhotep III in the Red Sea. And there is evidence of the Jewish empire at its height when Shishak made his invasion, and confirmations of many of the Judean and Israel kings from then on down through the Neo-Babylonian Period.

So it's just trying to find those lost panties one of the Israelities accidentally lost, so we can confirm this period.

There's plenty of things in the Bible that is hard to believe, so there's no need to exaggerate when you don't have to RED.


LG47