Freethought & Rationalism Archive

05-18-2004, 03:11 AM

Hi SEF,

Like a lot of other people you are completely wrong about the Flat Earth myth. It was invented in the 19th century. The flat earth myth is now universally derided by scholars but still crops up in anti-religious discourse.

Read this: http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Howay the Toon · 05-18-2004, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Jedi

more than once per game. you know, get up and hit again... rather than both carted off to the morgue.

Or don't rugby players hit with that much force?

Somewhat off topic but just to clear things up on the crucial matters.

Rugby players do wear some padding, just not to the same extent as American Football players.

No they don't hit with the same force because it would be illegal. They must make an attempt to grasp the opponent, not just run in to them at full pelt.

Doubting Didymus · 05-18-2004, 03:21 AM

Hullo. I figure this is more a bc&h thread. Moved from E/C.

Sven · 05-18-2004, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEF

The ancient Greeks did. If you look at the sentence you'll see I was talking about the spherical Earth bit not the helio/geo-centric bit which some other poster mixed up later in the thread. These are quite separate things with separate evidence.

OK, I misunderstood you.
And I agree that these are separate things (if this is unclear).

Your sentence:
"However, I'm pretty certain people really did believe the world was flat - other than the intellectual elite, eg among the Greek scholars."
coming after the paragraph about Galileo suggested that you were still talking about the same time (end of the Drak Age).

SEF · 05-18-2004, 04:14 AM

No, not dark ages, not middle ages, nor re-vamped versions of either of these. I was talking about the ancient Greeks hundreds of years BC (or even a thousand or so? I would have to actually look the dates up again since the later summaries/accounts refer to earlier ones). Note though that it was a tiny minority of the population for the next couple of thousand years who were capable of reading or given the opportunity to study. I think it very likely that when the average peasant bothered to consider the matter at all they assumed the Earth was flat (apart from all the lumpy bits!).

Bede, you are wrong. Sailors used to stick close to shore - one of the reasons being that they were on record as being afraid of falling off the edge of the world (not just that they were poor navigators). This has nothing specifically to do with Columbus, though it was supposedly mentioned then too - on the ship rather than in the royal court. It is possible that you happen to be right about it not being officially mentioned at the time in connection with Columbus, but it certainly appears in other stuff from the era. So it is at least plausible that it could have been mentioned by the crew.

Boro Nut · 05-18-2004, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

BBC Radio 4 UK has been trasmitting a fascinating programme on major errors of thinking by Francis Wheen!

I'm not aware of any major errors of thinking by Francis. Where is your proof for this unwarrented slur?

Boro Nut

Other than the two obvious ones
(a) He hasn't thought to change his name yet, and
(b) He turned down Antiques Roadshow to work for BBC Radio 4

Boro Nut · 05-18-2004, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Like a lot of other people you are completely wrong about the Flat Earth myth. It was invented in the 19th century. The flat earth myth is now universally derided by scholars but still crops up in anti-religious discourse.

It's only partially incorrect. There are many areas of the earth that are indeed perfectly flat. I can’t think of any that are perfectly round.

Boro Nut

GakuseiDon · 05-18-2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peez

Here are a few Biblical verses that imply a flat unmoving earth:

Here are a few Biblical verses that imply a flat unmoving earth:

1 Samuel 2:8
"He raises the poor from the dust,
He lifts the needy from the ash heap
To make them sit with nobles,
And inherit a seat of honor;
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
And He set the world on them.

1 Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Job 37:3
"Under the whole heaven He lets it loose,
And His lightning to the ends of the earth.

Psalms 19:4
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

Psalms 19:5
Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.

Psalms 19:6
Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Psalms 93:1
The LORD reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The LORD has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Psalms 96:10
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity."

Psalms 103:12
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Psalms 104:5
He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.

Isaiah 11:12
And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Daniel 4:11
'The tree grew large and became strong
And its height reached to the sky,
And it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

Revelation 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

How does an object being unmovable make it flat?

GakuseiDon · 05-18-2004, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEF

Bede, you are wrong. Sailors used to stick close to shore - one of the reasons being that they were on record as being afraid of falling off the edge of the world (not just that they were poor navigators). This has nothing specifically to do with Columbus, though it was supposedly mentioned then too - on the ship rather than in the royal court. It is possible that you happen to be right about it not being officially mentioned at the time in connection with Columbus, but it certainly appears in other stuff from the era. So it is at least plausible that it could have been mentioned by the crew.

Do you have any sources for that? I know very little about Columbus, but I never heard that the crew were worried about falling off the edge of the world.

SEF · 05-18-2004, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Do you have any sources for that?

Not internet ones, I'm far too old - as were they!

NB I'm surprised to get bounced back here by IIDB (after a minor crash caused by the internet). However, this thread has been moved to a zone I don't normally check (had to make quite an effort to re-find it earlier). So I wouldn't otherwise even have seen your post. Odd coincidence.

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05-18-2004, 03:11 AM	#51
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Hi SEF, Like a lot of other people you are completely wrong about the Flat Earth myth. It was invented in the 19th century. The flat earth myth is now universally derided by scholars but still crops up in anti-religious discourse. Read this: http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

05-18-2004, 03:21 AM	#53
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Hullo. I figure this is more a bc&h thread. Moved from E/C.

05-18-2004, 04:14 AM	#55
SEF Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,179	No, not dark ages, not middle ages, nor re-vamped versions of either of these. I was talking about the ancient Greeks hundreds of years BC (or even a thousand or so? I would have to actually look the dates up again since the later summaries/accounts refer to earlier ones). Note though that it was a tiny minority of the population for the next couple of thousand years who were capable of reading or given the opportunity to study. I think it very likely that when the average peasant bothered to consider the matter at all they assumed the Earth was flat (apart from all the lumpy bits!). Bede, you are wrong. Sailors used to stick close to shore - one of the reasons being that they were on record as being afraid of falling off the edge of the world (not just that they were poor navigators). This has nothing specifically to do with Columbus, though it was supposedly mentioned then too - on the ship rather than in the royal court. It is possible that you happen to be right about it not being officially mentioned at the time in connection with Columbus, but it certainly appears in other stuff from the era. So it is at least plausible that it could have been mentioned by the crew.

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