mirage

Welcome to the boards :wave:
I hope you can find something of use here,
I sort of "grew out" of a belief in god as a child. I was raised in a Methodist tradition but left to decide for myself and always encouraged to question things.

I've never put it like this before, (and I've explained my beliefs a lot now!) but I think think that my disbelief is for these five main categories of reasons:

1. The idea is inherently implausible to me and does not actually explain anything. e.g. if god caused the universe what caused god, as you have alluded to. It just shifts the inevitable mysteries of existence into a more palatable form. A person's plan. We're used to people. That's a comfortable idea. The thought that such a being might exist, care about a particular mammal species so much that he creates a universe, then hides, except he leaves a book that any bunch of humans could have written, that he sacrifices himself in human form to pay a debt to himself for the crime of being imperfect exactly as he intended us to be when he made us? I mean come on! Does this sound remotely like something that even could happen? Or like something that serves an entirely different purpose to the factual truth and has been made up as it went along?

2. Several of the implications of all religions generate internal contradiction. This is usually resolved by a "mystery" or a "mysterious way".

3. The Bible is not convincing as a divinely inspired document. So are all religious texts, and they are all of a kind.
There is nothing new or unique or intellectually engaging in it. The morality is sometimes horrific. It really looks like a bunch of myths from the bronze age.

4. From my point of view there are powerful reasons to support the "alternative" hypothesis that religions are purely a social phenomenon. They have a history that is like any cultural movement. The history is one of diversification and schism regarding the truth claims. There is no convergence on consensus as you would expect if truth were involved (cf science). There is commonality and convergence, but only regarding the social and psychological characteristics, the role that religion plays in peoples lives.

Out of the thousands of gods so far invented each has had believers certain of their faith, and sure that every other faith is misguided. Yet they all look the same from the outside.

5. (Please don't take this personally) In general, I have found that there is a striking negative correlation between belief and intelligence. This isn't just the people involved, it's also the arguments on display from both sides of the debate. So often the arguments used to advocate religion are just not up to scratch. You rarely see it go the other way. Obviously I could be pretty biased here, and I am also influenced by knowing far more people in scientific circles than other branches of human activity. It's not a valid argument, just a factor that has some subjective impact for me.

I think that all gods have been created by manmade mythology. Therefore I find it extremely implausible that one will turn out to be real. The sort of evidence I would need would start with god being an observable being. I don't mean necessarily directly observable, but on the other hand why not?

You should still have this trouble. Kicking the problem upstairs to god doesn't help. It's like asking why your dog is dead and being told that the house fell down on it. The correct response is not "that explains it", but rather "so why did my house fall down?"

Something rather than nothing is interesting for I think we know for certain that this question is unanswerable or meaningless in principle. Not only don't we know it, but god can't know it either. There is no shortage of awe at the mystery of the universe in the atheist camp.
No, that's it, lights out. I don't worry about this, though that's easier to say when its not staring you in the face. I do think about death every day, and probably always have done. A common remark around here is that not existing after you die is no more terrifying than the 13.7 billion years you didn't exist before you lived. I'm much more worried I won't get off my ass and stop wasting my life on bulletin boards. Maybe lazy people are inherently attracted to the idea of eternal sleep!

I've also seen quite a few people face death and then kick the bucket, and there doesn't seem to be much difference in their reaction to the prospect, regardless of faith. If they are young with family or they have alive parents it's fucking horrible any way you cut it (not for them after they've popped it though). Most other people have a great deal of dignity and come to terms with it ok. You can get used to almost any idea.

Anyway, good luck with your family issues. I'm sure that you want your son to be happy and it must be very difficult watching him come to an important conclusion that you regard as wrong. History, psychology and personal experience all tell us that it's probably best to accept that he has his own mind and will make it up either with or without your acceptance, and with is always better. He'll also be more sympathetic about changing his mind back if you are supportive and open, and perhaps honest about your own doubts and what resolved them. Don't worry, all that early indoctrination will probably reassert and drag him back to the fold sooner or later!

If you are worried about his morals or psychological wellbeing, then you should have no extra concern about atheism. Atheists can really be quite moral on occasion and they don't get depressed any more than believers. Deconversion can be a positive experience according to the "testimonies" on this site. (there's a thread somewhere if you search for "atheist testimonies".)

fishbulb

The existence of the Christian god, as described in the Bible, has been as thoroughly disproved as is possible for anything to be disproved. (Not that proof has ever dissuaded people from believing in things they really wish were true. I suspect we have all been guilty of believing in things that the evidence refuted because we wished they were true.) The god described in that book has so many self-contradictory characteristics as to be incomprehensible. No such being could exist in any sense of "exist" that is meaningful. If a god does exist--and there is no evidence to suggest that one does--it must be at least somewhat different from the one described in the Bible.

The Bible itself has been thoroughly debunked as a source of authority: there is no reason to think that anything written in that book is real by virtue of it being written in the Bible. (Though, like any work of mythology, it is bound to make reference to some actual people, places, and events and make claims which, by chance, happen to be true.) If a god does exist, any similarities it might bear to the god described in the Bible would have to be at least partly coincidental.

In other words, it is possible that there exists something that people might agree constitutes a god, but there is no evidence to suggest that something actually does exist. Furthermore, many if not most of the specific gods that people believe in--including the Christian god--are thought to have characteristics which are self-contradictory, nonsensical, or which contradict observed fact. Logically, these gods cannot exist as described.

The Universe appears to exist, as do you and I. This seems to be the way things are. I really don't know why things are the way they are, but I don't know why they would be another way either. (Existence per se is not inherently more remarkable than non-existence.) As interesting as it would be to know, it is not necessary to know why things came to exist in order to accept that they do. The simple fact that we experience things is proof that, for any meaningful definition of "exist," things exist.

I have, as most everyone does, a strong survival instinct, but I do not fear being dead or what it would "be like" to not exist, since not existing would not "be like" anything. I didn't exist before I was born, and that does not seem to have affected me in any way whatever, either positive or negative.

It is hard to conceive of existing, in any meaningful sense, forever. It seems as though I did not always exist and it seems as though, at some point, I will once again not exist. But I will not be around to experience what it is like to not be around when that time comes, so there is nothing to worry about.

Adora

Because faith is boring. It takes the uncertainty out of life. You might as well be dead. Who the fuck wants to live life like that, without the possibility of infinity?

I certainly don't.

Catholic Convert

Thank you very much for all the responses. This seems to be a very large and active message board and I don't think I'll be able to address all the posts, but I will go through some more of them as I am able.

For now, two stand out:

Yes I do believe this. This was a stumbling block to me before I joined the Church, but came to accept it, and later had some powerful experiences, which confirmed it. I do not see it as cannibalism, nor does the Church.

Can you give one or two of the most important examples of proof? Hopefully something I could reseach.

But nothing "makes itself." There is a cause for every effect. Can you trace back causes infinitely, or is there a "first cause," and if so, what caused that. Does it make any sense that there could be an "uncaused cause"?

Catholic Convert

I realize that my DESIRE to live the "Christian fantasy" of eternal happiness in Heaven is in and of itself not sufficient to create the REALITY.

However, what is repugnant about it? If it really could be as Christians say, why wouldn't you want it?

Regardless of what really is, why is it so bad to want SOMETHING instead of NOTHING?

openeyes

I'm a middle-aged woman who was raised Catholic. I think I was seventeen when I had a "aha!" moment in church when preparing for confession. We were doing a congregational preparation which included considering a list of questions to ask ourselves. The first one had something to do with a true faith in God or something. Since I was a "good" girl, I thought well sure I did, didn't I, but for argument's sake let's imagine there's no god. To my amazement, I felt the "cosmos" fall into place. That's why so much of religion didn't make sense and irritated me. That's why priests seemed so human despite their elevation to near-diety in the eyes of the congregation. That's why explanations of doctrine seemed so forced.

I tried for quite some time to rework my defintion of god so that I still fall within the mainstream of believers, but never could. I played along to get along since people have so negative views of atheists. I realized after a decade or so that I was an atheist and that wasn't likely to change. I finally came out to my family a few years back and they just avoid the topic, but still accept me and my kids.

I think death is it, but I don't fear it any more than anyone else.

Don't worry about your son. Have some good discussions with him. Revel in his discoveries of the world and his maturation as a person. Life as an atheist can be a fine life and just as moral (if not more so) than a life with religion.

P.S. You don't have to respond personally to this post. I just wanted to reassure you that your son will probably be fine.

DaninGraniteCity

Catholic Convert, here's a page about that kind of expression.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ic/vacuum.html

I have a Christian background too, but I was always kind of the smart ass who would ask stuff like, Where did God come from? How did Noah really get all of those animals on the ark? I tried to believe in God, but as I've learned about history, politics, religion, and science I do not see a reason to hold that faith in God anymore.

JGL53

I'm sure others will address your other questions, but this line of reasoning caught my eye. Cause and effect is the way we categorize and try to understand changes within the observed universe. I don't think it makes sense to extrapolate this method to try and posit a cause and effect explanation for the universe as a whole. Why can't the idea of an infinite regression of causes just be an incorrect way of looking at it, regarding the universe, or a god who creates a universe? You have the same problem with both.

There is no good reason that I know of (and incredulity does not count as a good reason) why the universe has not always just existed, and merely changes in form. The sum total of all causes and all effects IS the universe.

If you are able to accept an eternal god (which atheists view as imaginary, to state the obvious), then why can't the universe be eternal, or rather, timeless in its ultimate essense? What if there is no one pulling the strings - what if there are no strings?

In other words, the positing of a god solves no logical problem - it complicates and extends your problem when you insist on the cause and effect explanation of reality's existence.

Maybe this is one of the insights that led your son (who is obviously very intelligent) to the idea that god is not only not proved, god is unnecessary.

Catholic Convert

From a Catholic perspective, "we wrote The Book," at least the New Testament, so we believe we have the authority to interpret what we wrote.

Some things have not been definitively interpreted and are open to various opinions, but much has been, and is not for me or any priest to say otherwise.

But I agree that you cannot say that a book is true because the book itself says so.

In Catholicism we do not base our belief soley on the Bible, anyway, as do many of the Protestant sects.

Avatar

Where to start.

Wildly differing acconts made by the authors of the various books of the Bible when describing the same events. (Who found the tomb of Jesus? Were there guards? How many? Where was his first sighting after he had "risen"?) The fact that the books of the Bible were written decades, or even a century plus after the events they describe. A total lack of any extra-biblical verification of biblically described events. (Archaeologists finding Jericho...and discovering that there was in fact absolutely no trace of an exterior wall at all. Not even foundations for one. Total lack of evidence for a world-wide flood, or even a local flood of the degree described in the Bible. No trace of any migration of a large population from Egypt to Cannaan.) No mention by any of the historians of the time of Jesus regarding Jesus. Claims of the end of the world and God's Judgement coming "before this generation has passed away" (made by Jesus himself, supposedly), and yet here we all are still. Wild claims of miracles without a shred of coroberrating evidence. God described as merciful, benevolent, loving, yet behaving in the Bible like an egomaniacal monster of the absolutely worst kind.

Is that enough?