Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dean Anderson · 07-17-2005, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

When all is said and done, God comes out of this story looking like an insecure, sadistic creep who can be goaded by the likes of Satan.

I have always had a soft spot for the book of Job.

Having to lead a Bible Study on Job was instrumental in my deconversion. I could mouthe all the platitudes and apologetics - but I realised as I was preparing it that I quite simply didn't believe what I was saying.

It started the long and painful deconversion that got me here today.

Three cheers for Job!

Victoria Silverwolf · 07-17-2005, 04:27 AM

Job is one of the most interesting (least boring?) books in the Bible. I've heard speculation that it originally existed as a play, with speaking roles for God, Satan, Job, and so on. That's something to think about when you read it.

John Kesler · 07-17-2005, 06:28 AM

Job proves troublesome if one doesn't allow for the evolution of the Satan concept. If one assumes that the portrayal of Satan is consistent throughout the Bible, it seems odd that the being who blinds the minds of unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:4), causes physical infirmities (Luke 13:11, 16), fought with Michael about Moses' body (Jude v:9), will be cast into a lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), and is generally portrayed as the archenemy of Yahweh, was allowed into Yahweh's presence with the "sons of God" and carried on a friendly chat with Yahweh, even gaining permission to harm Job (Job 1:6-12).

Bearlaker · 07-17-2005, 07:16 AM

I like the fact that god and satan are kind of on the same team in Job, having board meetings, discussing projects.

Unbeliever · 07-18-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Job proves troublesome if one doesn't allow for the evolution of the Satan concept. If one assumes that the portrayal of Satan is consistent throughout the Bible, it seems odd that the being who blinds the minds of unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:4), causes physical infirmities (Luke 13:11, 16), fought with Michael about Moses' body (Jude v:9), will be cast into a lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), and is generally portrayed as the archenemy of Yahweh, was allowed into Yahweh's presence with the "sons of God" and carried on a friendly chat with Yahweh, even gaining permission to harm Job (Job 1:6-12).

Indeed, especially since Christians, or at least fundamentalists, insist that the reason Jesus had to die for our sins, instead of us just going to Heaven after death, is either that God can't stand to be in the presence of sin, or sin can't be in the presence of God: which sin, presumably, Satan would have fully embodied, and therefore would have been completely unable to be in close proximity to God. So if Satan can indeed be in God's immediate vicinity, there is no reason at all why us lesser sinners could not be also, which means that Jesus had no good reason to "sacrifiace" himself for us, which means that Christianity is totally unnecessary to our "salvation".

Agemegos · 07-18-2005, 04:31 PM

Now, for a giggle, go and read Carl Jung's Answer to Job. Apparently God realised that he came out of the 'Job Incident' poorly, but couldn't work out why. (The fact that he frequently 'forgot to consult his omniscience' had a lot to do with it.) According to Jung the incarnation was a personal development exercise for God, intended to make good the deficiencies revealed in Job. I have a very hard time working out in what sense Jung believed this to be true. Or even possible.

Jungians are weird, and can't write clearly. But they are weird.

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07-17-2005, 04:27 AM	#12
Victoria Silverwolf Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA Posts: 192	Job is one of the most interesting (least boring?) books in the Bible. I've heard speculation that it originally existed as a play, with speaking roles for God, Satan, Job, and so on. That's something to think about when you read it.

07-17-2005, 06:28 AM	#13
John Kesler Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 1,037	Job proves troublesome if one doesn't allow for the evolution of the Satan concept. If one assumes that the portrayal of Satan is consistent throughout the Bible, it seems odd that the being who blinds the minds of unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:4), causes physical infirmities (Luke 13:11, 16), fought with Michael about Moses' body (Jude v:9), will be cast into a lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), and is generally portrayed as the archenemy of Yahweh, was allowed into Yahweh's presence with the "sons of God" and carried on a friendly chat with Yahweh, even gaining permission to harm Job (Job 1:6-12).

07-17-2005, 07:16 AM	#14
Bearlaker Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Monroe, Utah Posts: 1,152	I like the fact that god and satan are kind of on the same team in Job, having board meetings, discussing projects.

07-18-2005, 04:31 PM	#16
Agemegos Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: 152° 50' 15" E by 31° 5' 17" S Posts: 2,916	Now, for a giggle, go and read Carl Jung's Answer to Job. Apparently God realised that he came out of the 'Job Incident' poorly, but couldn't work out why. (The fact that he frequently 'forgot to consult his omniscience' had a lot to do with it.) According to Jung the incarnation was a personal development exercise for God, intended to make good the deficiencies revealed in Job. I have a very hard time working out in what sense Jung believed this to be true. Or even possible. Jungians are weird, and can't write clearly. But they are weird.

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