Hi everyone,
Long post alert…
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Noah: The mention of "many nations" probably includes him, though, I would say.--
Alexander is nowhere in the scripture.
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Unless "many nations" means more than just Babylon.
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Lee: the prophecy did refer in some places specifically to the mainland, and in other places, rather clearly to the island, so may we not apply different parts of the prophecy to different parts of the city?
Noah: So what is it Lee? It was either all destroyed or it wasn't.
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Unless "bare rock" meant the island, which is what we are discussing!
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Noah: The question is what is Tyre doing there now? Why is it there?
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It's being mainland Tyre! I don't mind…
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Noah: With reference to all the photos we have given you, can you tell us where that bare rock is?
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Underwater, possibly!
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Lee: On ships? Chariots, too! This has to mean the mainland.
Noah: No Lee it doesn't. I pulled this from an apologist's article on Tyre:
being built upon a small island, and separated from the mainland by a strait of no great depth (vid., Movers, Phoenizier, II p. 288 ff.).
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Why chariots, though, if the wall was built to the edge of the sea? Or even if it wasn't?
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Lee: Soundings are planned, but this is not photographs…
Sauron: You should go rent "Jurassic Park" and see the opening segment where they are blasting sound waves through a rockbed to create a 3D image of the fossils.
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Jurassic Park is not a science documentary, though. I assumed by "soundings" they meant digging, not echolocation. And trying to find a location means you don't know where they are yet! So they may indeed not find them.
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Sauron: Finding items under water doesn't prove that the earth was lowered. If it did, then all the trash in Boston Harbor proves that Boston Harbor sank.
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Finding trash doesn't prove it, finding pillars and stones might indicate that, though, especially ruins they are excavating in a silted up harbor!
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Sauron: "Many nations" refers to both Babylon, as well as its army, for all the reasons I outlined earlier. You seem to be forgetting - Ezekiel used the exact same terms for both Nebuchadnezzar's army, and "many nations." Why would he do that, if they weren't the same thing?
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Well, that's your interpretation! If you are correct, then certainly I am not, and Ezekiel said what you thought he meant. But let's continue to discuss "many nations"…
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Lee: Babylon is referred to as a nation, not as "nations"…
Sauron: But not by Ezekiel.
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But this shows usage, and we can't just discount that, if it doesn't appear in the reference that we want to interpret. That is why scholar-folks reference secondary literature.
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Lee: So "many nations" almost certainly refers to more than just one kingdom attacking Tyre.
Sauron: Incorrect. Since Ezekiel identifies Nebuchadnezzar…
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Your conclusion here stands, regardless of any evidence to the contrary? Now your job is to show me how Jeremiah 25:12 and (especially) Jeremiah 50:41 are not proper secondary references explaining usage. Jeremiah and Ezekiel were contemporaries, by the way.
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Lee: So "many nations" almost certainly refers to more than just one kingdom attacking Tyre.
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Yes, I agree!
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Lee: He sent all the Tyrians he did not kill into captivity though, I think he did fulfill the prophecy.
Sauron: No, Alexander the Great did not send all the Tyrians into captivity.
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Well,
MSN Encarta says: "Angered by Tyre’s stubborn resistance, Alexander reportedly slaughtered a quarter of the city’s inhabitants and sold the rest into slavery."
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Sauron: If you think that exile is a fulfillment of prophecy, then you need to read your bible.
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But if he sent all the people he didn't put to death into captivity, that's in the neighborhood of destruction. He wouldn't touch the buildings or the wall if he did this?
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Sauron: Alexander at his worst only destroyed half the city.
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I think someone might be guessing here! Speaking of people guessing…
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Lee: On ships? Chariots, too! This has to mean the mainland.
Sauron: Of course you would use horses. First you break down the walls.
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Well, this seemed a rather, well, weak statement, so I passed over it. The standard procedure was to break through, or build a ramp, not pull it down, as in this verse you quoted here: "and with his axes he shall break down thy towers." Horses don't generally assist with axe work…
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Sauron: at the time of the siege of Nebuchadnezzar, there was a narrow causeway connecting the island to the mainland city. So the horses wouldn't have even needed to get their feet wet.
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And then the horses could wield their horse-axes?
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This reference can be found in "Syria & Lebanon", a Cadogan Guide, by Michael Haag, 1995. Page 354.
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Well, a causeway doesn't force Neb to be the one to attack the island fortress, even.
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Lee: They said they were planning soundings…
Sauron: Britannica never mentioned soundings.
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Well, it doesn't really matter to me who mentioned soundings, though!
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Lee: No, there were Babylonian officials in charge (so says my book), with limited power, yet rulers, nonetheless.
Sauron: Your christian apologetics book is wrong - wow, did I make a tautology?
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Well, why is my history book (it's not apologetics: "Cities of the Biblical World," it seems reputable) wrong, though?
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Lee: X will do this, I will do that, need not imply X will do that.
Sauron: Except that in the Ezekiel passage, God is still speaking about what Nebuchadnezzar is going to accomplish for God himself.
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That may not be the required interpretation, though, as similarly here:
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
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Sauron: Tyre does not require a "round tip." I still don't know why you think this is somehow important or required.
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Well, if the walls were out to the edge of the sea (the reference is "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", first edition, p. 275; in a paragraph referencing Arrias, a Greek historian), then that's an indication that the island has changed significantly.
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Sauron: If you think it's odd, then explain why.
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Because building a fortress with a wall following such projections is difficult at best, for no compelling reason that I can think of.
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Sauron: Every map in existence shows that Tyre is an island, joined to the mainland by Alexander's causeway.
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Every map is interpreted that way by some folks!
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Lee: It's "ruins of ancient Tyre" underwater in Nina Nelson's book…
It is? How would you know, Lee? Do you own the book?
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Well, if Josh McDowell was making stuff up here, that would spoil his purpose completely for someone (is anyone here eager to find such a misdemeanor out?) to discover this. I dare say he is being careful. How would you know that Josh McDowell is prone to bending facts? If we're going to be demanding having the source verified or not, how have you verified that the Josh source is unreliable?
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Besides, people speak of "ancient Rome". The Roman ruins of Tyre date from the same time period as that of "ancient Rome".
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But ancient Rome is not ancient Greece! Nor ancient Tyre.
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Ah, so now you appeal to the idea of "most probable.". Funny; earlier you were trying to twist "many nations" to mean something else besides the "most probable" interpretation.
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I also do think "many nations" meaning more than Babylon is most probable, too.
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Lee: Well, what visitors can see are jetties and breakwaters, apparently, those are the "few evident ruins," surely they would have also mentioned any buildings above-ground, too!
Sauron: Why "surely"? There is nothing 'sure' about it.
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This is not a refutation, though.
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Why are you obsessed with above ground? There is no scriptural or prophetic requirement that ruins be above ground.
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No, I meant not underwater, it's difficult to pick a good phrase to indicate this, how about "land ruins"?
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The majority of the Phoenician ruins are -- as Britannica indicates -- below ground.
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I must ask for the Britannica reference, because I searched in this thread, and can't find it!
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Lee: If they have samples, though, why are they taking soundings to find the location…
Sauron: I already explained this: "They *do* have samples; that's how they know that the earlier levels are available for excavation. But because the modern city sits on top of the Phoenician ruins…"
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Yes, only this is assuming the conclusion, they are trying to locate them, which means … but I said this already.
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Sauron: Yes, they would use this technique to find ruins.
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Which means they haven't found them yet?
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Sauron: If you're claiming the island was made bare, then it's up to YOU to prove it.
Lee: You were claiming it was not, though! Do you not have to prove your point?
Sauron: He who asserts, must prove. Not only that, but you claimed first.
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I'm not saying I can prove the island was made a bare rock, though. Your turn!
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Sauron: Get off your backside and do some research. I'll even give you a hint: layers.
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If I find a succession of layers, that proves continuous habitation? I suppose we have proved I have continuously inhabited my house then, and it has not be demolished and rebuilt.
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Badger: here's one link to start you off if you want to find more on Darius - he was well known…
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Well, here is my Bible Encyclopedia on this topic (which is new to me):
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Originally Posted by Encylopedia of Bible Difficulties
No identification can be made out between Darius the son of Hystaspes and Darius the Mede for the following reasons:
1. Darius I was a Persian by birth, a cousin of King Cyrus; he was not a Median.
2. Darius was a young man when he assassinated the imposter Gaumata (who claimed to be Smerdis, the son of Cyrus) in 522. Darius could not have been 62; he was more likely in his twenties.
3. Darius did not precede Cyrus as king of Babylon; rather, he began his reign seven years after the death of Cyrus the Great; yet the liberal theory alleges that the author supposed that he came before Cyrus.
4. Such confusion as to the true nationality and time sequence of Darius the Great would have been unthinkable in the second-century B.C. Hellenistic world.
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Sauron: The Darius that is known to history and archaeology is precisely the one you are describing. However, the account in Daniel of Darius is full of errors.
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They used to say that about Luke, too! And about the Hittites.
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Farrell: The fundamentalist claim that this area is now just a bare rock, as Ezekiel predicted, is obviously not so.
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Unless it's underwater!
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Sauron: The admins at FF have graciously agreed to host the photos the old-fashioned way. So here they are.
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I still see two rather pointy projections…
Regards,
Lee
05-02-2005, 10:39 AM
Map of Tyre
) (although I hadn't remembered this until after I read his post).
