NonHomogenized

I'm not exactly a prolific thread-starter, so I wasn't precisely sure where to put this, but here goes.

I've oft heard religious people claim that atheists are arrogant, or that they're closed-minded, or have too much faith in their conclusions. I must admit to some puzzlement on the subject.

Personally, I consider myself a "strong" atheist; I find the idea of any sort of "interventionist" god/s to be unsupported and preposterous at best, and diametrically opposed to reality at worst, and non-interventionist gods to be an unneccessary and unsupported hypothesis.

However, I, and most of the other atheists I have talked with would not say that we are absolutely, irrevocably convinced of our positions; given good, solid, evidence for the existence of god/s, it is quite possible, and indeed, likely, that we would change our minds.
On the other hand, a large number of the theists and deists I have talked with (including the same people who accuse atheists of being closed-minded) are 100% convinced of their positions. Indeed, I have friends with whom I discuss religious matters on occassion, and, as they have expressed their opinions, there is nothing that could change their minds; even if it made no sense, and they couldn't understand how a good god could exist, they would still take it on faith, just because. In fact, this is what I have been told outright by more than one, when it came up in a conversation (no, I wasn't trying to deconvert them).

So, anyhow, why exactly is it that we're seen as the closed-minded ones?

foxjazz

The Christian faith, speaks of arrogance. Why would us humans be significant enough for any God to think valuable. What is it about God that he should think this way? Some flaw either way to draw it. I mean look at the emotional connection we have created in espousing this God thingy, and look at the mindless followers we can reap from it. We humans enjoy being arrogant, so arrogant in fact that we have created several religions in the name of God (take your pick).

Ojuice5001

Here's what I think:

(Throughout, "hardcore atheist" will be used to mean "atheist who assigns a very small probability to the established religions being true.")

Your post says that you find an interventionist god to be preposterous; maybe that's why. I mean to say, theists often think of their own religion, naturalism, and the major world religions they don't accept, as all being roughly equal in merit. (Such theists adhere to the religion they do either because they have neglected to question their beliefs, or because their own religion still has some kind of advantage over the others.) So a hardcore atheist who thinks that the various religious worldviews are infinitesimally unlikely seems to be closed-minded, because the theist considers the various religions to be viable possibilities, and the hardcore atheist does not. Also, anyone on either side of the fence can see that there are many religious belief systems, but to many theists all atheistic belief systems seem to be the same--the result being that the hardcore atheist appears to assign a very small probability to any belief system but his own.

As for theists who say that nothing could ever change their mind, I think the reason has to do with the theists in question feeling a very strong connection to their god. Another possibility is the fear of hell if they turn apostate. I offer no defense of the idea that these people are open-minded; maybe theists and atheists are both closed-minded in most cases.

crazyfingers

The kind of arrogance that I run into most frequently talking to christains on christain boards is an inability or unwillingness to distinguish between belief or faith vs knowledge.

Theists often claim to "know" (that a god exists or that a god wants somethng of me or some some other claim) rather than simply claim that they have faith in or believe.

I don't know why this is but I do find it utterly arrogant and closed minded. When asked for the evidence, it's is never forthcoming. I have a difficult time being patient with a theist who claims to "know" what his god wants rather than to simply claim faith or belief.

I'm not sure why they do this. I often wonder if they are afraid to admit to even the possibility that they might question their beliefs in front of other christains.

variant 13

Nicely put Ojuice5001.

Now for me:

I feel that I'm open-minded, I readily change my world-view in line with new information (well it takes a bit of time but still).

But I am convince by everything that I have found out about humans and religions that it's all made up. I do tell people this, oh how they hate me . That said if any evidence of god/religion was presented I think I would at least consider it.

Howard

Not necessarily. Quite often this �certainty� comes from what theists believe are personal experiences with God. That is the main difference between belief and non-belief in terms of certitude. If you�ve never had a god-experience then all you really say is that you have doubts. But if you�ve had just one experience, or believe you have, then to you it�s a certainty.

Granted, personal experiences are of no great value in the god debate, but they mean a hell of a lot to the people who have them.

crazyfingers

However it happens often enough that two theists who both claim to "know" two things that are mutually exclusive, they should have the intelectual integrity to admit that there must be doubt.

xorbie

I think one thing to make a point of is that while many atheists in a formal, debate setting will say that they are not certain, or that they are have doubts and the such, they do not act this way outside of that forum. See, it's nearly impossible to carry yourself in real, every day ordinary life as well as in intellectual debates of other stripes (such as E/C) without the implicit assumption that God either does or does not exist. Atheists may say that they are not 100% sure that God exists, but they act that way. (Note that this is not a complaint, or charge of hypocrisy. I really do believe it is absurd to expect otherwise).

In any case, that's why I simply attack the issue of God's existence as little more than a logical puzzle and intellectual duel, which has little siginifance on my life. Frankly, I couldn't give a damn if God existed (not an evil, Christian burn-in-hell type God, but an actual, benevolent God).

Joel

4God

Hmm...

this word arrogant gets thrown out a lot.

arrogant means....

Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrogant)

In that sense i've only encountered a few arrogant atheists here. To boldly make a claim, IMO, doesn't make one arrogant. It just shows a zeal for whatever it is you're talking about, and I think that's good!

Jesus made some very "arrogant" claims. "I am the way." "I am the truth." Etc. To the person who doesn't believe Jesus, this is very arroant. Why? It isn't assumed that Jesus is telling the truth. And if He isn't, then wow those are some pretty outlandish statments. Also, to say that "there is no God", "i and only i am the maker of my destiny". Etc. Etc. To the person who does not lack a belief in God, these claims seem very "arrogant". In my opinion, it's all about the frame of reference. If you're espousing a claim you "know" to be a fact, it doesn't make you arrogant, but zealous in my opinion. Arrogance enters when you are completely unwilling to look at your position from a different perspective. Even Jesus said, "

So if, the God of the Christian world can say "even if you don't believe me(the Bible) believe the works(witness by millions in everyday life) to prove that I am God." That's my own extrapolation. So again, if you have a claim and bodly believe it, you should say so!!! Yet, you should be very willing to have the rest of the world attack it.

Too many christians, atheists, Muslims, Buddhist, human beings in general aren't willing to do so.

foxjazz

For atheist to say not certain would depend first on your definition of God. The reason atheists act certain, is because they are in a "state" of withholding judgment until such evidence that proves the existence of a God (no matter how you define it) comes to light.

It all comes down to how we decide what truth in knowledge is. Faith is proven to be a defaulty way to gain knowledge. Science has proven that it is a reliable way to gain knoledge.

The only reason to believe in any God(s) if by using faith. Believing without reason. Assume without reason.

Also, just because we can have a concept of a God, doesnt' mean a God exist. However I will concede a God exist only in the same sense that a perfect circle exist. In the mind of human thought.

Fox