Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 05-25-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Let's hope this is legitimate.

"The Vatican has requested to see the text,"

doubtless with the same hope.

UtahDan · 05-25-2012, 12:03 PM

It's Islam's own Book of Mormon.

maryhelena · 05-25-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The cultural ministry of Turkey has reported finding a 1,500-year-old document, possibly written in Aramaic, which may be the apocryphal “Gospel of Barnabas.” Turkish authorities say that the document was seized from smugglers in 2000. It will need repairs before it can be exhibited, they said.

Apparently the 'Gospel of Barnabas' connection was floated before the Iranian propaganda ministry got a hold of the story. Did I ever tell you when I was in Kenya in Mombasa (on the coast) where everyone 'knew' that the Gospel taught that Judas was crucified in Jesus's place?

"...everyone"? I never heard this - and I once lived in Mombasa for 2 years....

Duvduv · 05-25-2012, 03:16 PM

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...-the-full-text

What is interesting about the very first chapter of this Gospel of Barnabas is the fact that Mary is alone, with no Joseph in the picture, exactly as the similar story about her appears in the Quran. But what is most intriguing about this is not that the Quran does away with Mary's betrothed husband Joseph, but that Barnabas does the same thing despite being similar to GLuke in other ways.

Furthermore she is warned to stay away from "unclean meat" which means the same thing as it does to Peter in Acts during his vision about eating, i.e. unclean meat does not refer to non-kosher meat but to meat from an animal slaughtered for non-sacrificial purposes.

Barnabas deals with the genealogy problem by assuming Mary has Davidic descent rather of the tribe of Levi as is understood in Sura Imran in the Quran, which probably goes back to the lineage of her cousin Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist as ironically also found in GLuke.

mountainman · 05-25-2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

There are ony four gosples, and they are in the bible.....nothing changes.

There are 20 odd gnostic gospels, and they were once outlawed. Their authors and/or preservers had a price on their head: WANTED: DEAD or ALIVE. We need to explain the historical and political environment for the authorship (presumeably in Greek) for (most if not all of) these 20 odd gnostic gospels.

What changes is our understanding of the Gnostics.

There has been no discussion of chronology for the source text of the Gospel of Barnabas.

When is it first attested?

The following from Decretum Gelasianum which is cited as 5th century, but may have been based on an earlier version prepared in the rule of Damasius in the later 4th century.

These dates suggest we could be dealing with a 4th century gnostic gospel which has been freely used by other writers centuries later. The point being even if we have a 15th century forgery, we have also citations to some apocryphal text in a period prior to the supposed time of Muhammad. {NOTE WELL: The Quran was assembled over 100 years after Muhammad supposedly lived}. We are dealing therefore with different versions and rescensions.

This aspect needs to be critically discussed and specified.

Quote:

Chapter 5 - Decretum Gelasianum
LIKEWISE A LIST OF APOCRYPHAL BOOKS

firstly we confess that the Synod of Sirmium called together by Constantius Caesar the son of Constantine through the Prefect Taurus is damned then and now and for ever.

the Itinerary in the name of Peter the apostle, which is called the nine books of the holy Clement apocryphal
the Acts in the name of the apostle Andrew apocryphal
the Acts in the name of the apostle Thomas apocryphal
the Acts in the name of the apostle Peter apocryphal
the Acts in the name of the apostle Philip apocryphal
the Gospel in the name of Mathias apocryphal

the Gospel in the name of Barnabas apocryphum <<=============

the Gospel in the name of James the younger apocryphum
the Gospel in the name of the apostle Peter apocryphum
the Gospel in the name of Thomas which the Manichaeans use apocryphum
the Gospels in the name of Bartholomew apocrypha
the Gospels in the name of Andrew apocrypha
the Gospels which Lucianus forged apocrypha
the Gospels which Hesychius forged apocrypha

etc
etc
'etc

Toto · 05-26-2012, 11:45 AM

The off topic digression led by sotto voce has been split off here

sotto voce · 05-26-2012, 11:55 AM

Sheshbazzar · 05-26-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

.....text was written in the 5th or 6th century

Might evidence something about the development of Islam, or 5th or 6th century christianity, but can do nothing to validate the christans mythological claims.

ChrisWorkman · 05-26-2012, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Iran’s Basij Press is claiming a purported Gospel of Barnabas, discovered in 2000, will prove that Islam is the final and righteous religion, causing the collapse worldwide of Christianity.

So. What?

(Actually I do care because I find it interesting, but really, it changes nothing. It's like finding the lost book of Zeus.)

lpetrich · 05-26-2012, 09:43 PM

It would be interesting to C14-date the pages and the ink -- what is their real age?

I would not be surprised if its supposed Mohammed prophecy was something vague and general.

As to whether it will make Xians want to convert en masse to Islam, I doubt it. Muslims already believe that Mohammed is Jesus Christ's successor, and that has not exactly provoked a lot of conversions.

But I think that Muslims could pull off some "Xians for Mohammed" scam in the fashion of "Jews for Jesus".

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05-25-2012, 12:03 PM	#12
UtahDan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Culpeper, VA Posts: 14	It's Islam's own Book of Mormon.

05-25-2012, 03:16 PM	#14
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...-the-full-text What is interesting about the very first chapter of this Gospel of Barnabas is the fact that Mary is alone, with no Joseph in the picture, exactly as the similar story about her appears in the Quran. But what is most intriguing about this is not that the Quran does away with Mary's betrothed husband Joseph, but that Barnabas does the same thing despite being similar to GLuke in other ways. Furthermore she is warned to stay away from "unclean meat" which means the same thing as it does to Peter in Acts during his vision about eating, i.e. unclean meat does not refer to non-kosher meat but to meat from an animal slaughtered for non-sacrificial purposes. Barnabas deals with the genealogy problem by assuming Mary has Davidic descent rather of the tribe of Levi as is understood in Sura Imran in the Quran, which probably goes back to the lineage of her cousin Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist as ironically also found in GLuke.

05-26-2012, 11:45 AM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The off topic digression led by sotto voce has been split off here

05-26-2012, 11:55 AM	#17
sotto voce Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: UK Posts: 3,057	<removed>

05-26-2012, 09:43 PM	#20
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	It would be interesting to C14-date the pages and the ink -- what is their real age? I would not be surprised if its supposed Mohammed prophecy was something vague and general. As to whether it will make Xians want to convert en masse to Islam, I doubt it. Muslims already believe that Mohammed is Jesus Christ's successor, and that has not exactly provoked a lot of conversions. But I think that Muslims could pull off some "Xians for Mohammed" scam in the fashion of "Jews for Jesus".

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