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11-02-2007, 01:22 AM | #141 |
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Andrew,
Thank you for these very useful comments. I wouldn't have picked up on Tatana or Arphosh, but both sound entirely feasible. Your comments about the collection seem just to me. We have clear evidence of late apocryphal stories being used as a source for the Alexander material, for instance. Why not for Zoroaster? The general tendency of oriental literature to turn into story-telling is commented on by Alphonse Mingana -- an oriental, remember -- in the intro to a book of his on archive.org. I'm going up to Cambridge today to photocopy things, and I will look at Brock's papers on the Syriac collection of Testimonia. I still would like to get a better handle on the Arabic witnesses, but it's time to go to the Syriac that lies behind the Arabic versions and see what can be found. I will look at Theodore bar Koni's book -- I suspect it must be in book 11, and I can skim that. All the best, Roger Pearse |
11-02-2007, 01:23 AM | #142 |
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I still want to get the remainder of Ms. Mingana 142 translated, but I'll give my translator a break for a week or so!
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11-09-2007, 08:00 AM | #143 |
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Here is the German for Graf's entry on this type of literature -- I'll post a translation in a bit.
(It is littered with unicode characters to handle underscores and overscores and dots in odd places, incidentally).
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11-09-2007, 10:04 AM | #144 |
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Get it in formatted form from here. Here it is minus bolds and italics:
145. Messianic proofs from pagan philosophers The apologetical literature of the Christian orient used the doubtful evidence of falsified statements of ancient pagan authors and invented oracular sayings to confirm the divinity of Christianity and the truth of its teaching, as was also done to an almost indeterminable extent by Greek and late antique apologists 1. Collections of such proofs of differing extent and with changing text also were taken into the Arabic language in theological works, where they appear both among collections of quotations and patristic citations or separately in the manuscripts. Greek ecclesiastical writers could point to Cyril of Alexandria 2, Didymus 3, and Theodotus of Ancyra 4, etc as examples. In both cases there are prophecies of the divine Trinity, the incarnation of the Word, the virgin birth of Jesus, the visit of the Magi, the massacre of the innocents, the divinity of Jesus, his miracle-working, and his passion, which depend either on the tendentious interpretation of real and attributed works and biographies, or on the expansion of pagan books of revelation (such as the Sibylline books). However authors writing in Arabic do not draw from the first source, naturally. Their writings stand at the end of a line of development (not individually identifiable) which for some comes from Greek, although much contorted and developed, and for others derives from Syriac and Coptic sources. For already a preliminary and in no way conclusive investigation of the Arabic material, and a comparison with the readily available Greek texts 1 shows that they have comparatively few quotations in common in substance, let alone verbatim, and that -- at the simplest level -- the number of witnesses derived from earlier Christian writings increases. The latter feature is explained by the fact that through distortion and corruption the number of Greek (and non-Greek) names increases, and also names are transmitted in a form which cannot easily be attributed to their supposed origin. The alleged prophecies of pre-Christian authors are used in the theological works of the following authors writing in Arabic 2: Melkites: ‘Abdallāh ibn al-Fadl (11th century), in the 32nd chapter of his anthology "The Great Book of Benefits" (often circulated separately); and, at a later but somewhat indefinite date, Gerasimus, Superior of the Monastery of St. Simeon at Antioch, in his five-part apology for Christian doctrine (= G) 3. Nestorians: The authors of 2 (3) theological encyclopedias which share the same name (in the original), the "Tower book"; i.e. Mārī ibn Sulaimān (= M; 12th century) 4 and ‘Amr ibn Mattā (14th century) 1, also the plagiarist Salībā ibn Yūhannā. Jacobites: An anonymous explanation of the Nicene Creed, Vat. ar. 148 (end of the 16th century), ff. 38v-40r (= J). Copts: The earliest users of this kind of litterature is the bishop Severus ibn al-Muqaffa‘ of al-Ašmūnain (10th century) in his polemical "Book of the Councils" (= S) 2, and Yūhannā ibn Sabbā‘ (14th century) in a theological-practical manual (= JS) 3. The proofs mentioned by the latter are all borrowed, either from S or from M. Free-standing collections may be found in the following Mss: Vat. ar. 9 (1583 AD), ff. 77r-97v ( = V). Kairo 261 (1795 AD), ff. 103v-115r (=K1). The pieces which it has in common with V have many variations. Cairo 333 (1739 AD), ff. 184r-190v; Cairo 434 (17/18th century), ff. 92r-94r, in Chap. 48 of a moral-anthology Cairo 573 (1846 AD), ff. 96r-101r (= K2). Sbath 1079 (17the century). Mingana syr. 481 (karshuni., 1689 AD), ff. 221v-225v Mingana ar. Christ. 60 (1771 AD), ff. 171r-173v as a component in the Collectanea "Book of the Bee" by the Patriarch Makarius ibn az-Za‘īm. The principal pagan witnesses in the previously mentioned works and collections for the value of Christian belief are the great philosophers and classics of the Greeks, including the apocryphal Hermes Trismegistus, the "Seven sages of Athens", sayings from the Delphic oracle, usually cited simply as "Apollo", also the Sybil, other less well-known personalities, and then outside of the Hellenic culture the biblical Balaam, a sage whom the emperor Augustus consulted, often as "Augustus" himself, oracles to the Egyptian Pharaoh, and the Persian Darius, Zoroaster and Manes. An (incomplete) overview in alphabetical order is given here, with the places where the text can be found. Aemilius (?) der Philosoph (G). Anthimus (G). Apollo (M; V=K1 from "Athanasii Magni Commentarius de templo Athenarum", PG. 28, 1429 A; new edition by Delatte, Le déclin. . ., p. 109; 4 G; probably also a 5th citation under the name of Apollonius) Aristotle (V = K1; 1 G from Pitra loc. cit., pp. 306; 1 G from the "fourth philosophical book" of Aristotle; + 1 G; 1 S from his book with the title "The higher knowledge" [Kitāb al-‘ulūm al-‘alīya], only in substance = J; 1 S from his letter to Alexander = J, here under the name of Pythagoras; 1 S from his "Book of treasures" [K. al-kunūz] =J; + 1 S). "A wise man (‘arrāf) of Augustus" (2 V = 2 K1; S = J in part; G). Bābās (for Bias? V = K1). Balaam (V = K1 = K2). Chilon (? - M "Kīlā[n]us"). Darius (G "Darius the wise"; V = K1 "Darius, the son of the king"). Democrates (M = JS). Dionysius the Areopagite (G, about a solar eclipse). Hermes (M like Didymus in Pitra loc. cit., p. 305; PG. 39, 755-760, and Cyril of Alexandria, PG. 76, 556A; one part of this also in G; + 1 M = JS; + 2 M; 1 G like Cyril in Pitra p. 306; PG. 76, 553 A; + 1 G similar to Cyril, PG. 76, 552 D; + 7 G; + 1 G, answer of Hermes to a question of Pharaoh: what is the great star? Reference to the holy Trinity, whereupon Pharaoh allows the consecration of a temple to the divine Trinity and the Word of God; 3 V = 3 K1; 1 S=1 J; 1 S = JS; + 5 S). Jason (M = JS "Nāsūn"). Ilon (? — M "Ajūlun" = JS). Manes (M "Mānī" = SJ in part; + 1 M). Marius (? — M). Miletus (M = JS with mutilated name). Numetius (G). Origen "the wise" (J). Orpheus (with mutilated name G as Cyril, PG. 76, 552 C; 2 V = 2 K1; S). Two temple oracles to Pharoah at the time of Moses (G). Philo (M). An unknown philosopher (V = K). Plato (2 S, in a different recension 2 V = 2 K1; + 1 S from the "Book of the secrets" [Kitāb al-asrār] = JS, in an expanded recension V; + 2 S; M; 4 G). Plutarch (G as Pitra p. 306; with mutilated name [?] V = K). Porphyry (G, abbreviated from Cyril in Pitra p. 306, PG. 76, 554 B, and Didymus id. 39, 760; + 1 G; V = K1; M, similarly in Gotha ar. 2882, f. 18v). Pythagoras (M, weakly similar to Cyril PG. 76, 548 C). Pythia (? — V "Fūbijā" = K1 Furbīja ?). The Sibyl (V = K; 3 G, from which a shortened piece with similar wording in JS; all of these pieces are missing from "Sibyllinischen Weissagungen", ed. J. Schleifer). Socrates (M; G). Solon (G, on the passion of Jesus). Sophocles (V = K1; a second piece attributed to him may possibly be present, but with mutilated name; G). Themistocles (Gotha ar. 2882, f. 19 r). Thucydides (G). Titon (? — J "Atā��*un; a shorter recension in S "yūnīyūn"). Xenophon (G, similar to Cyril, PG. 76, 552 A). Zoroaster the philosopher (V = K1; 1 K1; J, in substance similar to the first Hermes citation in S). Mutilated, with a still uncertain name: ( 2 S + 2 S + 1 S; M; 5 different in G; 1 V = 1 K1 + 1 V = 1 K1 = K2; 1 V = 1 K1). |
11-09-2007, 01:47 PM | #145 |
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More details on Al-Majd, from Graf's Geschichte vol. 2:
Translation:
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11-19-2007, 07:05 AM | #146 | |
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I've found an important recent study by P F Beatrice Anonymi Monophysitae Theosophia a new attempt to reconstruct the Theosophia. (It had been in effect mislaid in the Cambridge University Library's cataloguing process, but after I made enquiries staff very kindly located and catalogued it.)
Important points are that i/ Beatrice regards the Theosophia of Aristokritos as quite different from the Theosophia partially preserved in works such as the Tubingen Theosophy. ii/ He emphasizes the centrality of the original behind the Tubingen Theosophy for later works citing non-Christian sources in support of Christianity, particularly in the case of Syriac and other Eastern works. He claims that works such as the Baalbek Oracle were originally part of the Theosophia iii/ Beatrice emphasizes the Monophysite origins of the Theosophia I am not entirely convinced by his claim i/ and I will try and say more about this later. (I agree that if the two Theosophia are the same work then the abjuration formula seriously misrepresents the work, but I think such misrepresentation is more plausible than Beatrice does) Beatrice has argued both in this work and in Le Livre d'Hystaspe aux mains des Chretiens pps 357-382 in Les Syncretismes Religieux dans le Monde Mediterraneen Antique that the prophecy attributed to Zoroaster in Theodore Bar-Koni and later writers comes from the Theosophia. He gives an English translation of Theodore which I will quote. Quote:
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11-19-2007, 08:19 AM | #147 |
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Thank you for this Andrew, which is most interesting!
I have discovered that there is an excursus by Roger Beck, "Thus spake not Zarathustra" on the mass of pseudo-Zoroaster material of late antiquity and beyond, in Mary Boyce, History of Zoroastrianism, vol. 3. (I found it by accident while searching Google books for 'Mages Hellenises', as the start of the excursus is included there). I have this at home but haven't done more than skim it (high temperature last weekend, when it arrived) One bit of interest: almost all the Zoroaster stuff is about astrology. Interestingly there is also some in Arabic that *is* derived from a Sassanid source. I've also been in contact with St. Joseph University in Beirut, and have sent them money for copies of the text of al-Majdalus in their two mss (one of which is the oldest). My intention is to get this text transcribed and translated. |
11-24-2007, 03:24 AM | #148 |
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We have a new witness! And it also uses stuff about Alexander, Aristotle, and talismans, as Ms. Mingana 142 did.
From Graf's list of witnesses, I saw that 'JS' did not have the Zoroaster quote, but was mainly copied from S which did. So I looked up JS -- Yūhannā ibn Sabbā‘ (=John Ibn Saba) in the Patrologia Orientalis 16. This contains the first 56 chapters (about half the work) of The precious pearl: an encyclopedia of theological knowledge. John Ibn Saba himself is a Copt of the 14th century, and this work is his only work. Luckily I didn't just photocopy the bit listed by Graf, but the whole work up to that point. Graf must have missed the use of the Zoroaster quotation in the chapter earlier on the Sabaeans -- my eye happened to fall on it by accident. This chapter contains also the Alexander stuff. The PO edition here is Arabic and French. It looks as if the second half of the work never appeared. I will translate the French and post it here. |
11-24-2007, 04:19 AM | #149 |
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A glance at CG Jung Collected Works may be appropriate!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/90084/Jung...gy-And-Alchemy |
11-24-2007, 04:40 AM | #150 | |
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Quote:
All the best, Roger Pearse |
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