aa5874

It would appear to me that people here do NOT understand that an Expert opinion is NOT evidence of anything.

Go to any court trial and we have Experts who use the very same Data yet contradict each other.

Experts opinion is NOT evidence.

We have the Transcript of "On the Contemplative Life" and it does NOT state anywhere that there were Therapeutae in Judea, were Jews or of Jewish origin.

Another 1st century Jewish writer, Josephus, in the History of the Jews, did NOT identify any Jewish sect called the Therapeutae from the time of ADAM to the end of the 1st century. See the Works of Josephus.

Apologetic sources of antiquity that mentioned Philo's Therapeutae claimed they were Christians of the Jesus cult. See Church History.

Expert Opinion cannot alter the texts of "On the Contemplative Life" and the "Antiquities of the Jews".

The Therapeutae were NOT ever identified as a Jewish sect from since the world was created in the works of Philo and Josephus.

Clivedurdle

I am doing something about Public Health, and there is a comment in a discussion about the history of medicine about Hippocrates trying to separate soulish stuff from bodily stuff.

http://www.greekmedicine.net/b_p/Four_Humors.html

He was, as was just about everyone in the West until we got together germ theory, circulation.... using the above ideas, which are of course all over the Hebrew scriptures - rauch.

I do not understand this continual separation of pagan and Jew, body and soul. Maybe it was picknmix?

stephan huller

Well maybe we can view this idiotic diversion as your vacation from productivity.

stephan huller

Yes but that's a bad example. You have never comprehended the simple idea that between you and the text you are reading in English is:

a) the sense of the original Greek

and

b) the cultural context of Philo being a Jewish writer

We have gone over this time and time again, aa. You seem to think and act as if the New Testament was written in English or act as if there are no significant differences between the Greek original and the English translation. You also have no idea what Judaism is. Your grasp of the New Testament is curious to say the least. So yes, 'experts' do matter because they have been trained to at least (a) understand the basics of Greek and (b) understand the basics of Judaism. It's like taking your car to get repaired by a mechanic. Generally speaking, someone who went to school to study how to fix cars is going to better at figuring out what's wrong with your car than someone who only watched demolition derbies on TV.

Sheshbazzar

Given that Conybeare associates this discription given in Porphyry with the 'Therapeutae' of Alexandria,
I believe the followings sheds a bit more light on the matter and manner of these 'Therapeutae's' religious practices.
(I'll provide a few references back to Philo's VC)

Carrying statues of the Gods in solemn religious processions? 'Disposing in an orderly manner'? (displaying these Gods in rows)

Hmmm... Just does not sound much like any 'Jewish' practice that I'm familiar with.

Does anyone here know of any 'Jewish' group other that these Alexandrian 'Theraputae', that made a notable practice of hanging out around statues of the Gods, and of carrying the statues of the Gods in religious processions?
or 'disposing (Gods) in an orderly manner'? (displaying their Gods in rows)

'distributed' the day into the worship of the Gods' (again the plural) and 'distributed' would suggest that multiple Gods were worshipped in sequence.

In other words, whatever sect Porphyry/Chaeremon was describing here (and given the rest of the elaborate details provided it certainly appears to have been the 'Therapeutae' of Philo)
They were very polytheistic. Which although certainly not unknown within earlier Judaism, (the Prophets and Levitical Priesthood having opposed and denounced these 'Jewish' polytheists from at least the time of the composition of the Torah) it seems highly unlikely that these 'Therapeutae' with such extreme deviations from the monotheistic Jewish Temple practises, would in such a short time period have either reverted to, or have evolved into such an extreme split with those long established and well known practices of monotheistic Judaism.

Which seems to point to these Ethiopian 'Thereputae' of Philo/Chaeremon/Porphyry having had their real roots in those old polytheists that were forced to flee Judea/Israel with the rise of monothisim, and the consequent 'Jewish' suppression of polytheisim.

This would explain their retention of the elaborate ancient Hebrew purity rules, along with their practice of polytheisim.
And in this they would have been the remaining group most consistent with -real- Hebrew religious beliefs and practices prior to the 'finding' of The Torah 'Book of The Law' by Hilkiah. (2 Kings 22, 23:24 & 2 Chron 34)

These Alexandrian 'Theraputae' would have of nescessity been very familiar with the widespread monotheistic Judaisim of Jerusalem and the Temple, yet must have deliberately retained polytheistic practices that were contrary to that knowledge.

Makes one wonder how they incorporated the Torah and the Prophets, (if they did) with those extreme mononotheistic views, into their accepted (and apparently polytheisim embracing) religious literature and practices.

Very protective of their Ethiopian/Egyptian polytheistic practices.

Strange 'Jews', if that's what they in fact were. Neither Philo, nor Chaeremon, nor Porphyry ever specifically identify these 'Theraputae' as being Jewish, and it might be assumed that these well educated and literate men would have been well aware of the monotheisim of mainstream Jews and of the government of Israel.

I would suggest that the proper perception would be that these Alexandrian 'Therapeutae' were the decendents and continuators of old polytheistic 'ISRAEL', that is those Hebrews that had rejected the Torah introduced form of Judah's monotheistic religion. Hebrew Israelites who in fact, never had accepted Hilkiah's 'found' Book of The Law, or became 'Jewish'.

These writers had to be well aware that the sect of the 'Theraputae' that they so described did not fit the profile of well known monotheistic Judaism.

aa5874

You don't know what you are talking about. Even in court trials there are TRANSLATORS.

In court trials and investigations at any level, NON-EXPERTS, ordinary people, can present and examine evidence with the use of TRANSLATORS.

You don't seem to understand there are professional translators, actual trained and qualified translators.

I do NOT accept opinion as evidence.

I do NOT accept personal translations. I use NEUTRAL sources.

Some people here are not even qualified as translators yet are making all sorts of worthless translations of languages that they do not understand.

I am dealing with an ENGLISH version of "On the Contemplative Life" translated from Greek by Charles Duke Yonge.

"On the Contemplative Life" in English does NOT state anywhere that the Therapeutae lived in Judea, or that they were Jews or of Jewish origin.

In the History of the Jews--from Adam to the end of the 1st century, No sect called the Therapeutae was identified as Jewish by Josephus.
Sources of antiquity that used Philo claimed the Therapeutae were Christians of the Jesus cult.

Toto

This is from the description of the Egyptian priests, not any Therapeutae.

There were points at which Philo's Therapeutae and the Egyptian priests had similar practices. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

There's enough confusion going on in this thread. Please don't add to it.

And thanks for identifying this for Pete. I may not be able to respond to any more of Pete's questions for a while.

Sheshbazzar

Nope Toto. I am not buying your out.

I only presented here those selected quotes that referred to the subject of polytheism amongst this group of Theraputae, but the rest of that material reflects ancient HEBREW purity restrictions and distinctive practices engaged in by the Alexandrian Theraputae, and are not the practices of the Egyptian priests.
It is a package, as it is presented there is no way of extracting, 'this is an Egyptian practice' but this is a Theraputae practice', the total is a description of Alexandrian Theraputae practices. -including the polytheisim.

And this is why Conybeare makes the connection of Chaeremon/Porphyry's description, with Philo's 'Theraputae', which are considered by no scholar to be merely common 'Egyptian' priests'.

Well I guess you could call them 'Egyptian priests' in that they were living in the environs of Egypt, but what is reported of them in Philo, and in Chaeremon as reported by Porphyry, these were not any normal 'Egyptian' priesthood.

Toto

Porphyry is not describing Therapeutae.

Is this a concerted attempt to drive me insane?

stephan huller

Why do you want them to be pagans? Can't you see you are projecting your own judgment and prejudice on the original material?