Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fta · 09-27-2004, 06:40 PM

Progress! Isaac Vossius (1618-1689) - variously spelled as Isaak - was the son of the aforementioned G.J. Vossius (1577-1649). There is an interesting account of him here:

http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/feb/10.htm

Vorkosigan · 09-27-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

When he attended divine service in the chapel at Windsor, it is said that he used to read Ovid's Are Amandi instead of the prayer-book. He knew all the European languages, without being able to speak one of them correctly. He was familiar with the manners and customs of the ancients, but profoundly ignorant of the world and the affairs of ordinary life. On his death-bed he refused the sacrament, and was only prevailed upon to take it by the remark of one of his colleagues, that if he would not do it for the love of God, he ought to do it for the honour of the chapter to which he belonged.

An early infidel! God bless him...

Thanks for all the great information, guys.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 09-27-2004, 07:12 PM

Son of a bitch. Guess whose work Secret Mark showed up in.

From here

"What Smith then began photographing was a three-page handwritten addition penned into the endpapers of a printed book, Isaac Voss' 1646 edition of the Epistolae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris.[4] It identified itself as a letter by Clement of the Stromateis, i.e., Clement of Alexandria, the second-century church father well-known for his neo-platonic applications of Christian belief. Clement writes "to Theodore," congratulating him for success in his disputes with the Carpocratians, an heterodoxical sect about which little is known. Apparently in their conflict with Theodore, the Carpocratians appealed to Mark's gospel."

<Twilight zone sound>

Vorkosigan · 09-27-2004, 07:14 PM

That's got to be a joke by Morton Smith -- Secret Mark showing up in a work by a prominent atheist scholar of the 17th century....C'mon.

andrewcriddle · 09-27-2004, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

That's got to be a joke by Morton Smith -- Secret Mark showing up in a work by a prominent atheist scholar of the 17th century....C'mon.

Ehrmam notes in 'Lost Christianities' p. 87 that the final page of Voss's text immediately facing the first page of 'Secret Mark' includes a passage about forged Christian manuscripts with the comment by Voss 'That very impudent fellow filled more pages with these trifles'

Shortly afterwards on the facing page the 'Secret Mark' letter begins...

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan · 09-27-2004, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Ehrmam notes in 'Lost Christianities' p. 87 that the final page of Voss's text immediately facing the first page of 'Secret Mark' includes a passage about forged Christian manuscripts with the comment by Voss 'That very impudent fellow filled more pages with these trifles'

Shortly afterwards on the facing page the 'Secret Mark' letter begins...

Andrew Criddle

"If you can't spot Secret Mark as a forgery from 3,000 ft....."

I see I have to get a copy of Ehrman. Thanks, Andrew. You're a handy fellow to have around.

DaninGraniteCity · 09-28-2004, 12:17 AM

His book is on Amazon for $20.40.

Toto · 09-28-2004, 12:51 AM

Lost Christianities (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be searched online.

Quote:

First, it is very peculiar that the letter appears in the particular book that it does: Voss's 1646 edition of the letters of Ignatius. If the letter is authentic, the placement in this volume is a brilliant irony; Voss's eidition was the first to remove from the Greek manuscript tradition of Ignatius the forged Ignatian documents and the interpolations made into Ignatius' text by theologically motivated scribes. And what is the newly discovered text of Clement? A letter that describes forged documents and interpolations made into Mark's text by theologically motivated scribes. And it is a letter that itself may have been forged! Is this a craftily placed fingerprint or an intriguing coincidence?

Second, the letter begins on the first blank page at the end of the book. Surprisingly, scholars have not taken any notice of what is on the facing page, the final printed page of Voss's volume. Possibly they haven't noticed becuase the facing page is not found in the photographs's of Smith's scholarly edition, the one that scholars engage with, but only in the popular edition, where the intended readers obviously cannot make heads or tails of it, since it is commentary written in Latin about texts written in Greek. But the content of the page is striking. In his discussion here, the author, Voss, is noting a set of falsifications of manuscripts of the Epistle of Barnabas, another early Christian text. Voss lambastes scribes who have altered the text by making an addition to it. He points out that Ignatius was not the only one who text was falsified by someone who wanted to make additions to it; so was Barnabas. And so he says: "Just as Ignatius had his own interpolators, who adulterated his text, so there have been others who believed that the same things was permitted for the letter of Barnabas." He goes on to quote a bit of these falsified additions in one of the availalbe manuscripts, and concludes by saying that he has given enough to give his readers an idea of what he means. He concludes by saying, in refernce to the scribe who interpolated the falsified material, "That very impudent fellow filled more pages with these trifles." He then discusses one other textual falsification, which he indicates has misled previous scholars in their interpretation of the text. And that is the end of his discussion.

But then, on the opposite side, begins the letter of Clement, of several pages, which most scholars have taken as authentic, but which others consider to be a textual falsification and which goes at some length to discuss textual falsification, alleged "additions" (interpolations) of another ancient Christian text, the Gospel of Mark. Was there an "impudent fellow" involved in these interpolations as well, either in ancient or modern times?

But then after all that, Ehrman refuses to say that Secret Mark is a forgery - if he did, he says, the manuscript would be discovered the next day, and an analysis of the ink would date it to the 18th century.

DramaQ · 09-28-2004, 06:37 AM

Ah! I love a good irony!

Not to play devil’s advocate, but…

It is entirely plausible for this to have happened in the context of the letter being copied by an 18th century scribe.

After all, if the scribe was in possession of an earlier copy of the letter, and if the letter was even then in some dispute, he may have felt it entirely appropriate to copy the letter in a book that was discussing the subject of disputed texts.

In my experience the best ironies don’t happen by genius but by chance.

Cheers,
dq

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09-27-2004, 06:40 PM	#11
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	Progress! Isaac Vossius (1618-1689) - variously spelled as Isaak - was the son of the aforementioned G.J. Vossius (1577-1649). There is an interesting account of him here: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/feb/10.htm

09-27-2004, 07:12 PM	#13
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Son of a bitch. Guess whose work Secret Mark showed up in. From here "What Smith then began photographing was a three-page handwritten addition penned into the endpapers of a printed book, Isaac Voss' 1646 edition of the Epistolae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris.[4] It identified itself as a letter by Clement of the Stromateis, i.e., Clement of Alexandria, the second-century church father well-known for his neo-platonic applications of Christian belief. Clement writes "to Theodore," congratulating him for success in his disputes with the Carpocratians, an heterodoxical sect about which little is known. Apparently in their conflict with Theodore, the Carpocratians appealed to Mark's gospel." <Twilight zone sound>

09-27-2004, 07:14 PM	#14
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	That's got to be a joke by Morton Smith -- Secret Mark showing up in a work by a prominent atheist scholar of the 17th century....C'mon.

09-28-2004, 12:17 AM	#17
DaninGraniteCity Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,958	His book is on Amazon for $20.40.

09-28-2004, 06:37 AM	#19
DramaQ Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 236	Ah! I love a good irony! Not to play devil’s advocate, but… It is entirely plausible for this to have happened in the context of the letter being copied by an 18th century scribe. After all, if the scribe was in possession of an earlier copy of the letter, and if the letter was even then in some dispute, he may have felt it entirely appropriate to copy the letter in a book that was discussing the subject of disputed texts. In my experience the best ironies don’t happen by genius but by chance. Cheers, dq

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