Toto

Chiliarch

yummyfur

It's a Greek term for any higher officer, literally "ruler of a thousand" as in a thousand soldiers. For Roman troops I think it was used in Greek for a military tribune, that is a cohort leader, the first cohort of a legion is 960 men, the other cohorts were 480.

IN John it's used in reference to Jewish temple soldiers who arrest Jesus, so not Roman troops. it's John 18:12

It's also used in Mark 6:21, but in regards to Herod Antipas' officers.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

Thanks yummyfur! I looked up chiliarch in a couple Bibles and didn't come up with it until you posted the passage.

(DARBY)John 18:

12The band therefore, and the chiliarch, and the officers of the Jews, took Jesus and bound him:


Sounds like a lot of people for one man, if it still means as many, just an observation.

Do any of the experts know if the participants at Xtalk discussed whether the soldiers may have been mocking Jesus, his disciples, the Jewish cheif priests, etc. when they cast lots for his stuff?

John 19:

21The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."

That sounds like Pilate was mocking the aforementioned.

Maybe the soldiers. or whatever they were, could have been doing the same?

John 19:
23When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.

24"Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did.

yummyfur

Actually only Matthew mentions guards at Jesus' tomb, all other gospels have no mention at all of guards, and would seem to show that there were in fact no guards. In Matthew it is fairly clear that it is the Pharisees who are allowed to put up a guards by Pilate.

yummyfur

A Chiliarch is any higher officer, he does't always have to have a thousand men, or always bring all one thousand with him. Like you can actually meet a US Army Lieutenant Colonel without his whole Battalion.

yummyfur

I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that one of the symbolisms being attempted here, is to tie Jesus' death to the "future" destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. So you have the soldiers dividing into four shares, or the four legions under Titus that besieged Jerusalem(or possibly the four main sectarian groups fighting inside Jerusalem, or both). The last garment is a single piece of cloth, like the Veil of the Temple, which Titus recovered unharmed from the Temple, it will end up as a trophy for Vespasian along with the Temple copy of the Torah(another single piece of material) in his palace.

The OT reference here is Psalm 22, which is linked to Jesus' last words in Mark's gospel. Though there are other additional references as well.

Obadiah 1:11
"On the day that you stood aloof, On the day that strangers carried off his wealth, And foreigners entered his gate And cast lots for Jerusalem-- You too were as one of them."

This is also a OT section about Edom's responsibility for damage to Jerusalem, again this mirrors the events of the Jewish war, where the Idumean's(Edom) come to Jerusalem, and cause great havok and destruction as they participate in the sectarian violence in the city. It is the murders they commit, that Josephus claims sealed Jerusalem's and the Temples fate in god's eyes.

Also Isaiah allegorically describes the wealth of Jerusalem as clothing, which god will take away by violence.

Joan of Bark

Wow!!! My humblest apologies. I thought I was just asking a simple question, asking for some clarification on your point. Obviously, I don't understand my own motives.

To reiterate, I have read various skeptical views on this subject, and MOST take the position that there simply never was a resurrection. This is the position I take. If you believe that my readings are inadaquate, please feel free to contradict me with further information. Vorkosigan's explanation was what I was looking for. Your tone with both WS and me was distinctly aggressive and not at all helpful.

And I am a man.

spin

Check out DH Lawrence, "The Escaped Cock (or via: amazon.co.uk)" (aka "The Man Who Died"), as a prime example of the old idea.


spin