Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 03-01-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

to sotto voce,
The book was written in 71 (in reality, my deduction after studying it) but the author suggested he had the vision before 70 & wrote about it then. I explained why it was written in my webpage, something about giving hope to the Jews after Jerusalem destruction, letting them expect God will revenge them and inaugurate his Kingdom (on earth) 3.5 years after the holocaust of 70.

But that's a non-Christian premise, even an anti-Christian premise— that the kingdom of God was in the future. Revelation is premised on the kingdom of God as present reality, that is at war with Satan ('that ancient serpent') and his servants. And not with Rome, per se, though Rome is not entirely left out of it. Even phoney Christians (and there was no shortage) could not have merely updated such a book and made a credible case. There are too many contradictions. Revelation is about Jesus, as Christ, from beginning to end, when understood hermeneutically, in its context; which is based on Genesis, Eden, and Abraham, not wars with Rome or Egypt or any other worldly empire. It's like saying that Christians adapted the Books of Maccabees, this.

Bernard Muller · 03-01-2012, 12:37 PM

to sotto voce,

Quote:

But that's a non-Christian premise, even anti-Christian premise

Sure, Revelation started as non-Christian.
But I do not see any thing anti-Christian about the kingdom of God in the future. Many Christian texts predict the Kingdom will appear in the future: Pauline epistles, 'Hebrews', the 4 gospels, etc. And gMatthew specifies on earth.
Revelation does foresee wars with Satan but after, we have the huge heavenly Jerusalem landing on earth and the beginning of the kingdom of God.

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There are too many contradictions.

Once you remove the Christian additions, the contradictions disappear.

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It's like saying that Christians adapted the Books of Maccabees,

Christians added on Jewish texts, such as the Ascension of Isaiah.
From one of my webpages:

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It has been mentioned that 'Revelation' is the result of Christian additions on a thoroughly Jewish text:
- "the main [part of the] apocalypse [of John] actually belongs to Jewish apocalyptic literature." (Jewish Encyclopedia)
- "... German scholar Vischer .. holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition ... we think, it cannot be objected to ... The Apocalypse abounds in passages which bear no specific Christian character but, on the contrary, show a decidedly Jewish complexion." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

sotto voce · 03-01-2012, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

to sotto voce,

Quote:

But that's a non-Christian premise, even anti-Christian premise

Sure, Revelation started as non-Christian.

We know this because...?

Bernard Muller · 03-01-2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernard Muller
to sotto voce,

Quote:

But that's a non-Christian premise, even anti-Christian premise

Sure, Revelation started as non-Christian.

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We know this because...?

That's what my webpage is all about. From it:

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My main goal will be to demonstrate that many parts of 'Revelation' could not have been written by a Christian

http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

sotto voce · 03-01-2012, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernard Muller
to sotto voce,

Quote:

But that's a non-Christian premise, even anti-Christian premise

Sure, Revelation started as non-Christian.

Quote:

We know this because...?

That's what my webpage is all about.

Claims made here are justified here, or considered false.

Toto · 03-01-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

...

Claims made here are justified here, or considered false.

This is not the rule here. Posters are encouraged to link to long arguments rather than copy and paste large blocks of text.

sotto voce · 03-01-2012, 02:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

...

Claims made here are justified here, or considered false.

This is not the rule here.

Nobody said it is a rule. Just a fact.

Vorkosigan · 03-01-2012, 03:52 PM

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It's like saying that Christians adapted the Books of Maccabees, this.

Heh. Maccabees is all over the Gospel of Mark, SV.

sotto voce · 03-01-2012, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

It's like saying that Christians adapted the Books of Maccabees, this.

Heh. Maccabees is all over the Gospel of Mark, SV.

Heh.

Doug Shaver · 03-02-2012, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This is not the rule here.

Nobody said it is a rule. Just a fact.

Your saying so does not make it so.

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