Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LP675 · 03-04-2004, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin
But you have no point.

{... Edited to add, ... other than to turn a blind eye to implications of the conflict between borrowed underbelly, and later borrowed superstructure.}

spin

My point was the affirmation of the existence of “gods�? in the OT is no challenge for Christian theology. This is because the NT explains they are created beings. You asked why this makes a difference, I explained why, and you had no answer.

Doctor X · 03-04-2004, 10:56 PM

Actually he did have an answer.

You explanation does not work. Now you are free to believe it, of course.

--J.D.

LP675 · 03-05-2004, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Actually he did have an answer.

You explanation does not work. Now you are free to believe it, of course.

--J.D.

Of course, we are both free to believe anything we want, thank God we live in democracies. I would be interested to know why it ‘does not work’ though.

Doctor X · 03-05-2004, 01:34 AM

It does not work because it is contrary to what the texts say. One has to constantly deny what the texts say to maintain the belief. However, since the belief claims to have basis in the text, it collapses.

I may believe that it should be Romeo and Julian the great homoerotic love-fest . . . but the text does not say that, and my belief falls on close analysis.

--J.D.

exile · 03-05-2004, 04:17 AM

Originally, the God of the Jews was regarded as a national God. Only later did the idea of the Creator God conflated with this other God.

It was acknowledged that other nations had their own Gods and these various Gods were involved in a kind of contest. If you defeated a nation you defeated their God too.

Latterly, Judaism and Islam have become monotheistic. Christianity was for a time, but the idea of the Trinity rather muddies the waters.

All 3 religions accept the existence of supernatural beings - Satan, angels, demons - who are less powerful than God but are permitted to do evil in the same way that humans are. The idea seems to be that these sub-gods have free will. Why God created them is less obvious.

So the question is - does monotheism mean

1. Only 1 supernatural being exists and that is God

2. Several supernatural beings exist but only 1 is a god

3. Several gods exist but one is supreme.

I am not sure of the status of saints such as the Virgin Mary. Are these "supernatural beings" or merely souls in heaven (is a soul "supernatural")? Can they influence the world in a god-like fashion (ie perform miracles) or merely convey messages to God (in which case why not go straight to the top)? And what is the difference between these beings and Christ?

LP675 · 03-05-2004, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
It does not work because it is contrary to what the texts say. One has to constantly deny what the texts say to maintain the belief. However, since the belief claims to have basis in the text, it collapses.

--J.D.

What I am saying is contrary to which text exactly? The OT’s assertion that “gods�? exist, or the NT assertion the “gods�? are created beings? Which texts are you claiming I am denying?

Doctor X · 03-05-2004, 05:33 PM

Quote:

or the NT assertion the “gods�? are created beings?

There you go.

--J.D.

LP675 · 03-05-2004, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X

Lp- “or the NT assertion the “gods�? are created beings?�?

There you go.

--J.D. [/B]

Please at least try to be coherent. What I am saying IS that the NT asserts the “gods�? are created beings. How can my statement 'the "gods" are created beings' be at odds with the NT assertion to the same effect?

Doctor X · 03-06-2004, 01:12 AM

. . . because it is contradicted by what the OT actually says.

If one does not find that sufficiently coherent then I can recommend the sage advice of the noted translator Prof. William Arrowsmith.

Let me know.

--J.D.

LP675 · 03-07-2004, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
. . . because it is contradicted by what the OT actually says.

If one does not find that sufficiently coherent then I can recommend the sage advice of the noted translator Prof. William Arrowsmith.

Let me know.

--J.D.

I am very interested to see if you can confess you have made a mistake. I asked:

Quote:

“How can my statement 'the "gods" are created beings' be at odds with the NT assertion to the same effect?

And to this you replied “because it is contradicted by what the OT actually says�?.
This is obviously nonsensical because you are saying that my assertion “the ‘gods’ are created beings�? is at odds with the NT assertion “the ‘gods’ are created beings�? (despite the fact they are identical) because these allegedly contradict what the OT says. Even if my assertion and the identical NT assertion did contradict the OT, that doesn’t mean they are at odds with each other.

Please confess your mistake or demonstrate why the mistake is mine.

LP

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03-04-2004, 10:56 PM	#52
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Actually he did have an answer. You explanation does not work. Now you are free to believe it, of course. --J.D.

03-05-2004, 01:34 AM	#54
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	It does not work because it is contrary to what the texts say. One has to constantly deny what the texts say to maintain the belief. However, since the belief claims to have basis in the text, it collapses. I may believe that it should be Romeo and Julian the great homoerotic love-fest . . . but the text does not say that, and my belief falls on close analysis. --J.D.

03-05-2004, 04:17 AM	#55
exile Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 735	Originally, the God of the Jews was regarded as a national God. Only later did the idea of the Creator God conflated with this other God. It was acknowledged that other nations had their own Gods and these various Gods were involved in a kind of contest. If you defeated a nation you defeated their God too. Latterly, Judaism and Islam have become monotheistic. Christianity was for a time, but the idea of the Trinity rather muddies the waters. All 3 religions accept the existence of supernatural beings - Satan, angels, demons - who are less powerful than God but are permitted to do evil in the same way that humans are. The idea seems to be that these sub-gods have free will. Why God created them is less obvious. So the question is - does monotheism mean 1. Only 1 supernatural being exists and that is God 2. Several supernatural beings exist but only 1 is a god 3. Several gods exist but one is supreme. I am not sure of the status of saints such as the Virgin Mary. Are these "supernatural beings" or merely souls in heaven (is a soul "supernatural")? Can they influence the world in a god-like fashion (ie perform miracles) or merely convey messages to God (in which case why not go straight to the top)? And what is the difference between these beings and Christ?

03-06-2004, 01:12 AM	#59
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	. . . because it is contradicted by what the OT actually says. If one does not find that sufficiently coherent then I can recommend the sage advice of the noted translator Prof. William Arrowsmith. Let me know. --J.D.

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