FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-24-2006, 02:12 PM   #61
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
3) What is the scribble at the end of σχιζομενους that I pointed out on the first page?
The scribble at the end of σχιζομενους is a compressed Y (upsilon) and a tiny C (lunate sigma), which are the final letters of the word. In other words, the scribe shrunk those letters to fit the word on the line.

Stephen
S.C.Carlson is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 03:02 PM   #62
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: none
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse
The Romans did invent a system of punctuation in the 2nd century, but abandoned it later because the Greeks didn't use it. (from Reynolds and Wilson, "Scribes and Scholars").
The Romans used dots on inscriptions well before the second century.
Chris Weimer is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 03:39 PM   #63
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
When you say 'fifth entry' I am assuming you mean the κεφαλαια table. It is actually the fourth entry. Line four is a continuation of line three. If you look at the κεφαλαια listing you will notice that the third entry ends with a small horizontal line over the last letter ω which means it continues on the next line, if memory serves. You will also notice that the leper entry is marked by a Δ, i.e. the fourth entry.
This is it:



Here is the corresponding τιτλος:



Now which marginal notation corresponds to this and why? I am on this page
Buster Daily is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 03:56 PM   #64
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Daily
Now which marginal notation corresponds to this and why? I am on this page
I figured it out. This margin note:



corresponds to this blank space with what I think is an line over the character:



This is Mark 1:40

και ερχεται προς αυτον λεπρος παρακαλων αυτον και γονυπετων αυτον και λεγων αυτω οτι εαν θελης δυνασαι με καθαρισαι

or

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Buster Daily is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 05:02 PM   #65
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

Good eye, Buster! That's what I've been trying to show through words up till now. Thanks for the pictures and pointers!
Phlox Pyros is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 05:19 PM   #66
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

The images are fairly hard to read in your browser, so several of us probably just skimmed the intro. Here is a fairly important part that should help explain what Buster just pointed out:

Quote:
In the Gospels, the Ammonian sections and Eusebian canons-the latter in red-are noted in the margins.

The kephalaia are indicated in the margins of SS. Matthew and Mark by the sign "7"; in those of SS. Luke and John by crosses, with the addition of the numbers in red. These signs are also accompanied by a horizontal stroke, placed generally above the first large initial, or, more correctly, above the first letter...of the chapter, not infrequently in the first two Gospels, and more rarely in SS. Luke and John... An arrow-head is similarly used... When above the large initial, such marks are in red by the hand of the rubricator; when above the first letter, they are in black ink, by the first hand.

The titloi, or headings of chapters, were written in red in the upper margins, but the greater number have been mutilated or cut away.
Phlox Pyros is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 05:34 PM   #67
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse
1. We have at the front of the book a series of short sentences, preceded by a numeral, forming a table (like a modern table of contents). These, I think we have agreed, are the 'kephalaia'. There appears to be 47 lines in the table, if we allow those which are indented and marked with a '7' sign to be continuations (do people agree with my count?)
Yes. These are the kephalaia. My count is 48, and is based on my count and the Greek number of the very last kephalaion: μη.

Quote:
2. At the top of each column we have a heading, which is not the same as entries (although it may contain similar material) in the table in #1. These, I think we have agreed, are the 'titloi.' They are not the same in content or number as the kephalaia (?)
Yes (see my above quote from the introduction to the codex). As to whether they are the same in content or number as the kephalaia, I am a bit confused myself. However, it is very difficult to tell because of the bleeding of the ink and the wear at the tops of the pages. I would say, unless you are very interested in titloi to at least partially ignore these for now, as they seem to just cause confusion.

Quote:
3. The kephalaia start-points are marked in the text with a Z over a capital and an overscore over the word which starts it.
Sort of... Looks like a "Z", but is the same frequent "7" symbol with an underscore (again, see above quote from intro).

Quote:
4. The titloi, presumably, just give a rough idea of column contents, and have no start point in the text (?)
At the moment, they seem to me to give the last kephalaion in a particular column of text. I do not believe they have a "start point in the text".
Phlox Pyros is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 07:03 PM   #68
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

Ok. Here we go..... I have the first five kephalaia below:

α - περι του δαιμονιζομενου
1 - about the demon-possessed

β - περι της πενθερας πετρου
2 - about the mother-in-law of Peter

γ - περι των ιαθεντων απο ποικιλων νοσων
3 - about the healing from various illnesses

δ - περι του λεπρου
4 - about the leper

ε - περι του παραλυτικου
5 - about the paralytic

The kephalaia begin on the first page of Mark in the second/right column. Before I post each of these 5 kephalaia, however, I'd like to point out one that confuses me. It is the very first one on the first page in the second column. It does not relate to anything in the table of kephalaia. I do not know what it is. Anyone? It is in the red box, does not appear to have an "underscore", and does not relate to anything in the table. What is it?


After looking at this puzzling sign, we'll start with the actual kephalaia....



α - περι του δαιμονιζομενου
1 - about the demon-possessed one


second/right column, 1st page:
In the above image (and in subsequent images) I have put a box around the "7" sign and its "underscore" that indicate a kephalaion. The arrow simply points to the beginning of the section. This section of text is "about the demon-possessed one".



β - περι της πενθερας πετρου
2 - about the mother-in-law of Peter


second/right column, 1st page:
In the above image, not the "7" sign. However, unless it has worn away with time, there does not appear to be an "underscore" on this one! Nonetheless, this is definitely the section that talks about Peter's mother-in-law, as one can read between the brackets at the bottom of the image.



γ - περι των ιαθεντων απο ποικιλων νοσων
3 - about the healing from various illnesses


first/left column, 2nd page:
For the above image, the meaning of my red boxes and arrows should be fairly obvious by now. However, someone asked earlier about the "modern" verses (or whatever they are...) that are mentioned in the intro. I believe the "2" on the right side of this image is one of them. There is a "3" a page or two later in the middle margin.

δ - περι του λεπρου
4 - about the leper


first/left column, 2nd page:
Above, you can see the "7" sign's "underscore" repeated over the first letter of this section where the arrow is pointing at the right. This section is "about the leper" as you can read from between the brackets.



ε - περι του παραλυτικου
5 - about the paralytic


second/right column, 2nd page:
Finally, the above image is similar to the previous one where the horizontal sign is over the first letter of the section where the arrow is pointing. This section is "about the paralytic" as can be seen between the brackets at the bottom of the image.

Everyone got something of a grasp on the kephalaia stuff now?
Phlox Pyros is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 07:26 PM   #69
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

Others have have already pointed out how the Eusebian reference works, but I looked up one of the sections. In a previous image, I pointed out one of the Eusebian references in Mark, specifically ι/β (10/2) found in the center margin of the first page of Mark.


Again, the bottom number, 2, is the Eusebian cannon/table to look at, and the top number, 10, is what you will look for under the column for the book of Mark.

So, if one looks at the Eusebian Canon number 2 (II), finds 10, and looks horizontally across to the column for the book of Luke, they will see the number 32.

Now comes the fun part, turning this back into Greek numbers so that we can look up the reference in the actual text. I'll make it easy on you since I've already done the leg work. The reference 32/2 in Greek numerals would be λβ/β.

At this point, we flip over to the book of Luke and start a hunt for this reference. The numbers go in order, but don't get tripped up by the fact that there are 10 canons. That means there will be other references to confuse you. Skip over every reference that does not have a beta, β, on the bottom. Eventually, after much eyestrain, you will find the synoptic parallel between Mark and Luke. It can be found on this page (27a). Below is a picture of it.


The reference can be seen inside the red box, although part of the page is torn/missing. Across from the upper "tick mark" on the right side of the box, you will see the lower right portion of the lamba's (λ) leg and then the beta (β). Across from the lower "tick mark" is the beta (β) representing the specific Eusebian Canon. So, this is the Lukan parallel to the portion of Mark at which we were looking.

The two arrows at the bottom are simply pointing to the next Eusebian reference. As you can see, the top number is the next in sequential order.

Helpful? This was a fun exercise for me. I have to say it was much, much easier to do in the Nestle-Aland 27th Ed. of the Greek New Testament!!
Phlox Pyros is offline  
Old 03-24-2006, 07:30 PM   #70
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
Default

After this weekend, I will try to get into some differences between the text of Codex Alexandrinus and Sinaiticus (Aleph), Vaticanus (B), and/or Bezae (D). After browsing through the text, it didn't seem like there was much worth noting (at least in the early pages of Mark) with respect to differences between Alexandrinus and the Textus Receptus, so I think I'll let that comparison go.

If anyone else has anything to add, go head. Any more questions? Ask 'em! Just want to think out loud about this stuff? Go ahead!
Phlox Pyros is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:45 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.