Soul Invictus

Is there a significance to this, or is there a reason behind this distinction?

I guess what I'm getting at is:

1) What are the proper titles that would naturally have to follow for Noah's son, Ham? Japeth and his sons are the Gentiles right? And Shem and his lineage or the Jews correct? Maybe Semitic people is a better term. What do you call a these people?

2) What would you call a non-Hamitic descendant?

offa

Offa,

Soul Invictus asked, 'What did the term "Gentile" mean?'



How about a little Josephus?

Ant 12-241;

wherefore they desired his permission to build them a
gymnasium at Jerusalem. And when he had given them leave
they also hid the circumcision of their genitals, that
even when they were naked they might appear to be Greeks,
Accordingly, they left off all customs that belonged to
their own country, and imitated the practices of the
other nations.


Josephus is writing (supposedly) in a time frame prior
to the Maccabees. The only place in Genesis I could find
"Gentiles" was, "Gen 10:05 By these were the isles
of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his
tongue, after their families, in their nations.

I just wonder when "Genesis" was written.

The word "Gentiles" appears in "Jubilees" several times and the
author of the "Book of Jubilees" is highly critical of
the "Gentiles".

JUB 01:09
For they will forget all of my commandments,
everything which I shall command them, and they will
walk after the gentiles and after their defilement and
shame. And they will serve their gods, and they will
become for them an affliction and a torment and a
snare.

One would be led to believe that the term "Gentiles"
is from the time of Moses and some four thousand years ago,
however, I feel it was coined about 120 bc, or about the
times of the final editing of ancient Jew books.


Thanks, Offa

Soul Invictus

Somehow I failed to address this, but Heathen Dawn should be able to confirm this for me.

Gentile stems from the Hebrew word gowy (go'-ee) meaning heathen people. Jews are a cultural subset of a larger Semitic people. The term Gentile does not parallel this idea. It may
refer or make reference to a specific people, so I guess maybe you didn't understand my inquiry.

Toto

From Miriam Webster online

You are confusing the word gentile with the Yiddish word goy, which mean the same thing.

If you think that "gentile" originally referred to a specific nation, like the Canaanites, it would appear that it didn't, although I can't figure out how it derived its present meaning from the Latin word for nation.

Soul Invictus

Not necessarily terribly specific as the Canaanite example, but maybe try this. Understand that this example that I offer is not extended to give any especial creedance to the text, however I use the passages to contend that the writers of the text were in identifying the Gentiles, although Koy has already sentimented a lack of saying anything by choosing to classify parties and Jews, and everyone else.

In Genesis 10:1-32 there is an story I found interesting, specifically the Table of Nations segment.

As the story goes Noah has three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
According to Gen 10:2-4 it states the sons of Japheth. When taken into consideration the symbolic meaning behind this, we know that the 'sons' represent nation states, or societies. The sons of Japheth and the places that they represent are as follows:

(Genesis 10:2-4)

Gomer = Cimmerians
Magog = Europe (northern primarily)
Madai = Medes (Mediterranean)
Javan = Greece
Tubal = Russia
Meshech = Russia
Tiras = ?
Ashkenaz = Germany
Tarshish = Spain
Kittim =?
Dodanim =?

According to Genesis 10:5 it states "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations." Popular contention is made for Hebrew thought to have only been relevant to the extent of their experience, this explains the lack of documentation for a global flood.

Apparently the son Ham, which represents the (North) African people were not worthy of a lineage title. They are identified however in Genesis 10:6-20. For sake of brevity, the key 'sons' are:

(Genesis 10:6)
Cush = Ethiopia
Mizraim = Egypt
Put = Libya
Canaan = Palestine

The last quoted son is Shem, which represents the Semitic people.
This includes Jesus, the Hebrews, and a host of the biblical characters we've become familiar with.

My contention is that we can use the Bible's passage in Genesis chapter 10 to identify who the Gentiles are. I'm not sure how much more clear verse 5 is regarding this.

I am not well skilled in using concordances or lexicons, however I think I may have found a source to corroborate this at
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Entries:
1471 - gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

1482 - ethnikos eth-nee-kos' from 1484; national ("ethnic"), i.e. (specially) a Gentile:--heathen (man).

1484 - ethnos eth'-nos probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

I have not done any extensive studies on the particular religious/spiritual climate of said particular countries which represent the 'sons of Japeth', however whether there was a God-concept or not that was prevalent in those respected societies, it naturally follows that the arrogant fashion in which religions condescend alternative societies' God practices/concepts, that it would be evident in such a dogmatic and doctrinal model as Judaism to demean or label the people as heathen and paganistic.

Toto

I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Gentile appears to refer to non-Jewish nations of all sorts, not a particular ethnic group.

Gen 10:5 is translated in the NIV as

There is some comment on this translation
here

Soul Invictus

Thanks for the source. I shall read their information tonight after work.

Soul Invictus

Thanks for the link again, however my main contention is that the passage clearly identifies where the Gentiles are from, and the sons of Ham are undoubtedly not associated with the land masses that the sons of Japeth are. The sons of Ham are actually not recognized as any particular name, and are actually the supposed cursed ones. Whether this is out of a lack of respect for those people and their culture is another topic, however my only contention is that they are not inclusive to the Gentile people based on the reading of Gen 10:5.

Your thoughts?

Lastly, as the NIV translates Gentile as maritime, is this translation for the other verses that entail the term Gentile?