Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magdlyn · 08-04-2007, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

afaik, the first representation of Jesus was of a short-haired man in a short tunic, raising a paralytic with a magic wand. 235 CE.

Oopsie!

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/i...ra_europos.htm

Where is the magic wand?

Held in his hand.

Quote:

And why "oopsie"?

B/c we were talking about the process of the "creation" of a "historical" Jesus Christ, with all his biographical trappings. The "historical" Jesus was soon to be always depicted as long haired, bearded, in a long robe, as it was perhaps imagined Galilean peasantry would've dressed. Olde fashioned and fuddy duddy, by Hellenistic standards. Long hair, a beard and a long robe (not to mention a solar halo!) also lend him more dignity and make him seem older and wiser (and the halo makes him seem divine). But in the earliest representation, he's shown as youthful, beardless, short haired and in a snappy short tunic. He's also shown as a sort of magi, with his wand, which goes along with his need of mud to heal the eyes of a blind man in another legend.

Magdlyn · 08-04-2007, 07:57 AM

BTW, another interesting thing about the earliest representation of Jesus is that it was in a fort, Dura Europos (present day Syria), cheek by jowl with a Jewish synagogue and a Mithraeum. Both the Mithraeum and the synagogue had frescoes of their heroes. Expected for the Mithra temple, not so much for the Jewish gathering place (which depicts Abraham, Moses, Esther and others in seemingly direct violation of the Law, encouraging idolatry, one would think).

More pictures:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/s...ures/index.htm

Did all 3 3rd century cultic gathering places believe their heroes were strictly historical?

Ironically there are also temples to Bel (Baal) and Adonis (Tammuz) at this site, demons of the Old Testament!

Magdlyn · 08-04-2007, 08:26 AM

Another early depiction of Jesus, raising Lazarus with a wand, like a Greek hierophant. Roman catacomb, ca late 3rd century.

More early art, with early symbols taken from pagan imagery (vine of Bacchus, lamb, shepherd, peacock (!) ). Scroll down for images.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/hi.../topic%205.htm

Jesus was short haired and beardless like a Roman youth, until the 5th century, it appears.

GakuseiDon · 08-04-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Where is the magic wand?

Held in his hand.

No, no magic wand in his hand.

Here is another view of the image. There is fuzziness around the hand, but it matches similar patterns within the image. There is certainly no stick or wand in the hand that I can see. Why do you think that there is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

And why "oopsie"?

B/c we were talking about the process of the "creation" of a "historical" Jesus Christ, with all his biographical trappings. The "historical" Jesus was soon to be always depicted as long haired, bearded, in a long robe, as it was perhaps imagined Galilean peasantry would've dressed. Olde fashioned and fuddy duddy, by Hellenistic standards. Long hair, a beard and a long robe (not to mention a solar halo!) also lend him more dignity and make him seem older and wiser (and the halo makes him seem divine). But in the earliest representation, he's shown as youthful, beardless, short haired and in a snappy short tunic.

OK, but that doesn't answer why this is an "oopsie". Why is this significant, IYO?

GakuseiDon · 08-04-2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Another early depiction of Jesus, raising Lazarus with a wand, like a Greek hierophant. Roman catacomb, ca late 3rd century.

I may be wrong, but that looks like a line or crack, and not a wand. If it is a wand, why is there a lump about half way along, and why does it appear broken? Also, his hand looks open, so that he doesn't appear to be grasping the object. Why do you believe that he is holding a wand? Is that what is generally believed, or only believed by Freke-Gandy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Jesus was short haired and beardless like a Roman youth, until the 5th century, it appears.

That was well after "orthodox" Christianity had won the day. Why is this significant, IYO?

Magdlyn · 08-04-2007, 08:50 AM

Sigh. You really don't see?

My point is that in art, as in literature, we see the evolution of a mythology which eventually became solidified and canonized.

In Paul, an "inner" Christ, whose death we share by baptism, no biographical details.

In Mark a short narrative.

In Luke and Matthew, much embellishment to Mark.

Revelation: weird and wacky stuff, unfortunately very popular with the fundies to this day.

First "official" creed: 325 CE.

In early visual art, a Greek hierophant or heroic youth, short dark hair, beardless, short tunic. Plethora of symbols: fish, vine, sheep or shepherd, peacock, fish, wine and bread, cross/tree, chi ro, use of wand...

Starting in the 6th century, the image familiar to us appears, long hair (usually lt brown in color), beard, long robe, halo.

Magdlyn · 08-04-2007, 09:08 AM

more wand usage by beardless Jesus

Raising Lazarus:

This one appears to be changing jugs of water to wine with a wand:

GakuseiDon · 08-04-2007, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Sigh. You really don't see?

Afraid not. But I'm a liberal Christian, that's one of the worst kinds.

There is definitely no wand in the first image. In the second one, the "wand" appears to be a crack in the fresco, though I might be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

My point is that in art, as in literature, we see the evolution of a mythology which eventually became solidified and canonized.

Yes, that's certainly what happened, and a reasonable point.

Magdlyn · 08-04-2007, 09:29 AM

Is John Dominic Crossan a liberal xian, such as yourself? (and no, liberal xians are definitely NOT the worst kind, not by a long shot. Dominionists are, Phelps is.)

Crossan:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...catacombs.html

Quote:

So, Christians were being buried in the catacombs. If they were able economically to do more than simply bury their dead, if they could put an image there, for example, a picture, you began to get scenes. First of all, you got symbols like the anchor or the dove; that would be sort of the simplest one. Then you could get scenes like, say, the philosopher or the woman with her hands raised in prayer, the symbol of piety; various scenes, or you could get literally biblical stories.

And what's interesting is what they choose, because what they choose of Jesus is especially the healer. He appears beardless, so he's a new, young god, as it were.... And what's extraordinary, is he'd either have his hand or even a wand on the person he's healing. Now, nothing that I know of in the entire Greek or Roman world ever shows Asclepius with his hand on somebody he's healing.... (Asclepius was the god of healing in the ancient world, one of the great competitors, by the way, of Jesus, as early Christianity began, because he was a beloved God.)

[Jesus] seems to be an ordinary person, therefore a new god -- that's what the beardless means -- who actually comes out and touches the ordinary people. And many of these people that Jesus is healing, by their dress, you can tell are lower class. This is a new healing god, and that's what's on these people's minds.

I think this is one of the great things that helps the spread. Jesus is not shown as a transcendental being, he's down there in the mud of human history with his hand on people's heads and shoulders, and they're not the least bit inhibited of showing him with a wand in his hand in front of the tomb of Lazarus, for example.

GakuseiDon · 08-04-2007, 09:47 AM

I found some more examples of wand usage here:
http://www.bibleorigins.net/ChristBeardless.html

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-04-2007, 07:57 AM	#42
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	BTW, another interesting thing about the earliest representation of Jesus is that it was in a fort, Dura Europos (present day Syria), cheek by jowl with a Jewish synagogue and a Mithraeum. Both the Mithraeum and the synagogue had frescoes of their heroes. Expected for the Mithra temple, not so much for the Jewish gathering place (which depicts Abraham, Moses, Esther and others in seemingly direct violation of the Law, encouraging idolatry, one would think). More pictures: http://www.sacred-destinations.com/s...ures/index.htm Did all 3 3rd century cultic gathering places believe their heroes were strictly historical? Ironically there are also temples to Bel (Baal) and Adonis (Tammuz) at this site, demons of the Old Testament!

08-04-2007, 08:26 AM	#43
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Another early depiction of Jesus, raising Lazarus with a wand, like a Greek hierophant. Roman catacomb, ca late 3rd century. More early art, with early symbols taken from pagan imagery (vine of Bacchus, lamb, shepherd, peacock (!) ). Scroll down for images. http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/hi.../topic%205.htm Jesus was short haired and beardless like a Roman youth, until the 5th century, it appears.

08-04-2007, 08:50 AM	#46
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Sigh. You really don't see? My point is that in art, as in literature, we see the evolution of a mythology which eventually became solidified and canonized. In Paul, an "inner" Christ, whose death we share by baptism, no biographical details. In Mark a short narrative. In Luke and Matthew, much embellishment to Mark. Revelation: weird and wacky stuff, unfortunately very popular with the fundies to this day. First "official" creed: 325 CE. In early visual art, a Greek hierophant or heroic youth, short dark hair, beardless, short tunic. Plethora of symbols: fish, vine, sheep or shepherd, peacock, fish, wine and bread, cross/tree, chi ro, use of wand... Starting in the 6th century, the image familiar to us appears, long hair (usually lt brown in color), beard, long robe, halo.

08-04-2007, 09:08 AM	#47
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	more wand usage by beardless Jesus Raising Lazarus: This one appears to be changing jugs of water to wine with a wand:

08-04-2007, 09:47 AM	#50
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	I found some more examples of wand usage here: http://www.bibleorigins.net/ChristBeardless.html

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.