Joan of Bark

I still think you're missing my point, Stephan, which is that Christians say one thing and do something else, and won't admit the contradiction.

Anyway, I've made my point.

stephan huller

I don't know if there was a contradiction - at least in ancient times. It's like anything. I was raised to treat women with respect. You know 'you can't be rough with girls.' Then back in the day when I was dating strippers and the like this didn't apply in bedroom. I am serious. I only bring this up because it is such a funny theoretical exercise.

You are told by your parents that 'women' are to be treated a certain way and so you suppose that there is one size that fits all - and it turns out its not true. Every woman is different. There are women that like rough sex. There are women that think they are men. There's a whole spectrum of possibilities and 'truths' which a simple rule can't solve.

So too with the gospel. There might have been an original gospel. It might have been written by someone named Mark. But ever since multiple editors of the original material appeared on the scene, it is impossible to develop a rule in most cases as to what a given passage means or to determine the proper exegesis of a passage.

That's why the Alexandrian tradition interests me. There clearly was an established tradition of exegesis. At the very least we can determine what Clement THOUGHT was the correct understanding of a particular text 'according to established tradition.' And the answer is very surprising - suggesting in my mind that the Alexandrian tradition was based on a non-canonical gospel related to the Diatessaron.

That modern Christians are stupid - what am I going to say? I remember thinking how fortunate I was that God, fate, the order of the universe - whatever you want to call it - established dysfunctional families and wicked stepfathers in order to keep a steady supply of strippers and prostitutes in the world.

My point is that we think the world would be a better place if everyone came from a perfect family and all the blights of previous ages were correct - but how's a guy going to laid under those circumstances? Or at least how's he going to get away with that without lying about how sincere his love is for every woman he meets? Whose going to inspire all the rap songs out there?

My point is that God makes the world the way it is for a reason. That Christians are 'hypocrites' and stuff like that, I don't bother to go down that road. It is the way it is.

aa5874

You mean the DEVIL made the world the way it is? Right?

The Things you got from the girls was provided by the Devil? Right?

It is CLEAR that God did NOT make the world you LIVE in.

You little DEVIL.:devil1:

What would the world be like without those DEVILISH GIRLS you talk about?

stephan huller

Well to be honest most of these women were actually quite interesting (at least at the beginning). I wouldn't say the Devil because I tend to avoid viewing the world as developing from two antagonistic principles. I mean, it is always interesting for a controlled person to watch himself being seized by a profound interest in things.

bacht

Right, so every on of the several hundred million Christians out there meets your description?

I'm a musician by training. Should I believe that all musicians are no-talent attention whores like the celebrities on tv? The majority of 'real' artists never get their name in the media, they do just do their thing without fanfare.

You should know by now that people who do the real work, like the orgs you listed, don't go around blowing their own horn, they just do what they think is right, regardless of financial reward.

Which teachings? Is there a consistent Christian message in the New Testament? Is there even a consistent description of Jesus in the NT?

I'm sorry but this is a juvenile conversation. You refuse to acknowledge basic human nature, and seem to apply an unrealistically high standard of behaviour for (all) followers of Christ.

Gawen

I'm with Joan on this one 100%. The sayings of Jesus were unrealistic. Here's most of them:
• Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
• Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.
• Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.
• Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.
• Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.
• Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
• Abstain from covetousness
• Abstain from anger
• Abstain from lust.
• Abstain from adultery.
• Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.
• Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
• Do not resist evil.
• Do not strike back.
• Do good to those who hate you.
• Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.
• Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
• Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
• Practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and peacemaking.
• Kill those that do not believe.
• Abstain from swearing false oaths.

The above are all the ways to gain salvation. Even if Jesus never comes back, even if he was a failed prophet, people today still believe in Him. But they never do what he tells them to do.

Piss on basic human nature. Believers have a set of standards laid out before them to gain the salvation they believe that's coming to them. Yet they hypocritise themselves into a hole by their very belief system...because...of their human nature.

stephan huller

Why does it matter whether you or I AGREE with Christianity on any given issue? We have to decide early on whether or not we want to understand the tradition or just to heap abuse on it. I happen to be interested what the rational basis behind the religion. I thought that is what the forum was all about. I had same attitude with women or music for that matter. I wanted to play an instrument in order to understand how a composer came up with a tune. What the creative process entails. That would be impossible of course if passed judgement on the person, the tradition right at the outset.

In order to understand something, you have to be receptive to it on some level. It is akin (I think) to succesfully making love to a woman. I say I think so because I have been married so long these things seem so far away from me now. I also think it drastically lowers your maintenance costs on a woman too.

Joan of Bark

The vast majority? Yes. I know of few Christians who aren't trying to acquire 'treasures on Earth'. I mentioned the Amish, who probably come as close to followers of Jesus' teachings as anyone.

The organizations I've listed do blow their own horns. They have to, to raise funds for their (very worthy) causes.

On the issues of wealth and pacifism, yes. In fact, when I first read the Gospels, these were the points which surprised me the most. As an atheist, the last thing I expected to see was Jesus promoting poverty and peace, because I knew of no Christians who even endorsed such beliefs, much less followed them personally. They certainly didn't teach such things in church.

YOU'RE STILL MISSING MY POINT!

I want to hear Christians admit, actually say out loud: Jesus taught poverty and pacfism for his followers, but I don't follow such things. I want that new SUV. I want a flatscreen TV. I want to eat out in a fancy restaurant, instead of donating the money to the food bank. On those points at least, I don't follow the teachings of Jesus, and I'm ashamed of myself.

Such Christians I could at least respect for their honesty.

bacht

Let's see:

Many people are hypocrites - yes
Some Christians are hypocrites - yes
These Christian hypocrites should confess their hypocrisy - wishful thinking

Apparently you're qualified to judge and sentence these 'criminals'

You're using the most childish form of argumentation: "You suck! You should admit you suck!"

gimme an effin break

Joan of Bark

Agreed.


No, most Christians are hypocrites, at least on the issues of wealth and pacifism.


And the reason I don't respect people who claim to be Christian while refusing to make any sacrifices to prove it.

Christians regularly judge others. And when did I call them criminals? Don't put words in my mouth.

There you are, putting words in my mouth again. I wrote that Christians are hypocrites and should admit it.

But since you've reduced this thread to silliness, I'll end my comments here.