Freethought & Rationalism Archive

angelo · 04-01-2009, 03:19 AM

Q [if it existed] was a sayings tradition of what this Jesus taught. Perhaps the author of Mark had Q in front of him when he wrote this gospel. And the later gospellers had Mark in front of them, except for John who appears to be completly out of it as if on some kind of drugs. Or by the time John was composed [around the beggining of the second century according to some] the myth had blown out of all proportion. Jesus was by then god himself.

dog-on · 04-01-2009, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Q [if it existed] was a sayings tradition of what this Jesus taught. Perhaps the author of Mark had Q in front of him when he wrote this gospel. And the later gospellers had Mark in front of them, except for John who appears to be completly out of it as if on some kind of drugs. Or by the time John was composed [around the beggining of the second century according to some] the myth had blown out of all proportion. Jesus was by then god himself.

What about Paul?

aa5874 · 04-01-2009, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Can we even say that Paul's Christ was a rabbi? Paul's Christ seems to be a lord, not teacher.

Pauls Jesus was not human but a supernatural god-man. No one has mentioned the possibility of the Q document that may well precede all that was written of this very ordinary preacher. If this document actualy existed, it was the beggining of myth building on pure hearsay.

But, a supernatural god-man did not exist in the first century. People living in the 1st century in Judaea, between 15th year of the reign of Tiberius and the death of Nero, would have immediately known that the writer Paul was writing fiction.

Based on the letters with the name Paul, he was propagating that Jesus was the Son of of God, was resurrected and was seen in a resurrected state by himself and over 500 people.

Such statements, from the writer Paul, written or stated within 20-30 years of the so-called resurrection of Jesus would have been easily detected as false.

Another point which makes the Pauline letters incredible is that the writer claimed that Jesus, believed to be a Jew of the seed of David was the Son of God and was to be worshipped as a God and have the ability to forgive sins. Such a claim would have been regarded as insane based on Philo in Embassy to Gaius.

In Embassy to Gaius, written at around the middle of the 1st century, Philo the Jew from Alexandria, regarded Gaius as insane when he portrayed himslf as a God.

The Jewish people would have bluntly refused to have worshipped Jesus as a God to the point of death.

Philo in Embassy to Gaius

Quote:

...... he [Gaius] no longer chose to remain fettered by the ordinary limits of human nature, but aspired to raise himself above them, and desired to be looked upon as a god. (76) And at the beginning of this insane desire they say that he was influenced by such a train of reasoning as the following........

.......... said he, is it fitting that I who am the leader of the most excellent of all herds, namely, the race of mankind, should be considered as a being of a superior nature, and not merely human, but as one who has received a greater and more holy portion.

(77) Accordingly, having impressed this idea on his mind, like a vain and foolish man as he was, he bore about in himself a fallacious fable and invention as if it had been a most undeniable truth; and after he had once carried his boldness and audacity to such a pitch as to compel the multitude to admit of his most impious deification, he attempted to do other things consistent with and conformable to it, and in this way he advanced up to the highest point by slow degrees as if he were ascending up steps.

(78) For he began at first to liken himself to those beings who are called demigods, such as Bacchus, and Hercules, and the twins of Lacedaemon; turning into utter ridicule Trophonius, and Amphiaraus, and Amphilochus, and others of the same kind, with all their oracles and secret ceremonies, in comparison of his own power....

It is just untenable, unthinkable or just totally unrealistic that at the same time Gaius was calling himself a God, considered blasphemous to the Jews, that the so called Peter and Paul would be preaching to Jews that Jesus was also a God after having been executed for blasphemy.

angelo · 04-02-2009, 01:48 AM

It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

dog-on · 04-02-2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

Of course, this story doesn't actually come from Paul.

aa5874 · 04-02-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

So, if Paul was schizophrenic we know why he believed in his own lies. But then all of Paul's converts, and the church writers were also schizophrenic. They all believed Paul's lies, the lies of the author of Acts and those of the authors of the Gospels.

The NT must have been the result of mass schizophrenia.

bacht · 04-02-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

So, if Paul was schizophrenic we know why he believed in his own lies. But then all of Paul's converts, and the church writers were also schizophrenic. They all believed Paul's lies, the lies of the author of Acts and those of the authors of the Gospels.

The NT must have been the result of mass schizophrenia.

I prefer to see the adoption of NT Christianity as a reflection of the times and the emotional needs of the empire's residents. There was a market for a supernatural salvation cult 'stolen' from the Jews.

Even today many people believe in the supernatural. It's a legit form of adult escapism. I prefer chemicals but hey, whatever gets you thru the nite.

Amaleq13 · 04-02-2009, 08:32 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

So, if Paul was schizophrenic we know why he believed in his own lies.

One need not be schizophrenic to hold bizarre or incredible beliefs. Also, if Paul genuinely believed what he taught, they were not lies.

Quote:

But then all of Paul's converts, and the church writers were also schizophrenic.

No, one need not be a schizophrenic to believe the ravings of a schizophrenic. One need only be gullible and willing.

spamandham · 04-02-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

The Damascus road story in Acts is a later writer's creative interpretation of vague statements made in letters attributed to Paul. It's highly doubtful that the writer of Acts had much more insight into Christian origins than we do.

aa5874 · 04-02-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

The Damascus road story in Acts is a later writer's creative interpretation of vague statements made in letters attributed to Paul. It's highly doubtful that the writer of Acts had much more insight into Christian origins than we do.

But, the writer Paul appears to be aware of events in Acts and the interpolated long-ending of gMark. The writer Paul claimed there were people who were talking in tongues and had the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The short-ending of Mark appears to have been interpolated to reflect the words of Paul and Acts of the Apostles. This interpolation of gMark indicates that the original author of Mark was not aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and talking in tongues as written by the writer Paul.

The interpolator of gMark appears to be aware of the writings of Paul. Look at the interpolated gMark.
Mark 16:17 -

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And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues..

And look at the writer called Paul.

1Co 14:18 -

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I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all...

Even the author of gMatthew appears not to be aware of the gifts of the Holy Ghost and talking in tongues as promised by Jesus before he ascended through the clouds.

The writings of Paul with respect to talking in tongues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit appears to be after the short-ending of gMark.

Paul's Jesus is a myth, his writings are fiction and late, after the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

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04-01-2009, 03:19 AM	#181
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Q [if it existed] was a sayings tradition of what this Jesus taught. Perhaps the author of Mark had Q in front of him when he wrote this gospel. And the later gospellers had Mark in front of them, except for John who appears to be completly out of it as if on some kind of drugs. Or by the time John was composed [around the beggining of the second century according to some] the myth had blown out of all proportion. Jesus was by then god himself.

04-02-2009, 01:48 AM	#184
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	It's also quite possible that Paul was schizophrenic. That episode on the road to Damascus sounds awfully like some kind of brain seizure. I have a daughter with this debilitating illness, and know first hand the delusions they experience. To them it's as real as talking to you and me.

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