Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 10-18-2009, 09:05 AM

Years ago I remember finding a passage in one of the books of Christian Apocrypha (those Gospels and Acts which didn't quite make it into the canon) where the disciples, hiding in dismay after Jesus' execution, had "their heads between their knees" (the classic posture of a mystic preparing for a trance through controlled breathing), but I have not been able to find it since.

I was pretty sure it was in the Ante Nicene Fathers series of Roberts & Donaldson, probably volume VIII (the big one), but am not getting anywhere with the index or a quick look-see. Is there a searchable version of the Christian Apocrypha online? I've found one that has them chapter by chapter, but that would involve a LOT of effort to search.

DCH

Solo · 10-18-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

There is also sleep deprivation as a possible source of hallucinations, that may go with the "stay awake" deal that Jesus was talking. Along with the already mentioned regulating your breathing thru reciting prayer and also fasting.

I saw this recentlyin Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans . Don't know if this is something they really practiced or just a rationalization.

"They lodge among tombs and in caves for the sake of dream visions." You observe, then, how ancient among the Jews was this work of witchcraft, namely, sleeping among tombs for the sake of dream visions. And indeed it is likely that your apostles, after their teacher's death, practiced this and handed it down to you from the beginning,

Yes, this is very likely: BTW, in the thread on Doherty's new book, there is a charge in M.Felix against Christians practising secret and nocturnal rites.

I also believe the Lazarus story, originated in a real incident around a bapismal ritual involving sleep deprivation.

Jiri

arnoldo · 10-18-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

There is also sleep deprivation as a possible source of hallucinations, that may go with the "stay awake" deal that Jesus was talking. Along with the already mentioned regulating your breathing thru reciting prayer and also fasting.

I saw this recentlyin Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans . Don't know if this is something they really practiced or just a rationalization.

"They lodge among tombs and in caves for the sake of dream visions." You observe, then, how ancient among the Jews was this work of witchcraft, namely, sleeping among tombs for the sake of dream visions. And indeed it is likely that your apostles, after their teacher's death, practiced this and handed it down to you from the beginning,

Yes, this is very likely: BTW, in the thread on Doherty's new book, there is a charge in M.Felix against Christians practising secret and nocturnal rites.

I also believe the Lazarus story, originated in a real incident around a bapismal ritual involving sleep deprivation.

Jiri

Interesting theory, sleep deprivation/hallucinogenics resulting in a movement which has lasted more than two thousand years. If we add the creation of false memories into the history of early Christianity then we get a good picture of it's origins, not.

skepticdude · 10-18-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Historian Mary K. Matossian has an article in the Aug-Sept 2009 issue of Free Inquiry (the article is not online, unfortunately, but can be ordered at a reasonable cost or found in a library.)

Matossian is the author of Poisons of the Past: Molds, Epidemics, and History (or via: amazon.co.uk), which "presents evidence that food poisoning from microfungi in rye bread may have caused widespread hallucinations, low fertility and witch-like behavior during the 14th through the 18th centuries."

A liberal Christian apologist on the internet, one "Metacrock", will be stoked by this, because he is always trumpeting from the rooftops that he has empiricial studies that statistically prove God, and some of those studies involved drug-induced hallucinations, from which he concludes that there is an "other" reality which our 5 physical senses do not tell us about.

mountainman · 10-18-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Years ago I remember finding a passage in one of the books of Christian Apocrypha (those Gospels and Acts which didn't quite make it into the canon) where the disciples, hiding in dismay after Jesus' execution, had "their heads between their knees" (the classic posture of a mystic preparing for a trance through controlled breathing), but I have not been able to find it since.

I was pretty sure it was in the Ante Nicene Fathers series of Roberts & Donaldson, probably volume VIII (the big one), but am not getting anywhere with the index or a quick look-see. Is there a searchable version of the Christian Apocrypha online? I've found one that has them chapter by chapter, but that would involve a LOT of effort to search.

Have you tried the Google Search within a site or domain option using www.ccel.org?

eg: "knees" at www.ccel.org

PhilosopherJay · 10-19-2009, 07:43 AM

Hi DCHindley and Clivedurdle,

Okay, we've mentioned Man From Uncle and The Avengers, who is going to bring up The Prisoner and round out the list of three greatest television Spy shows of the 1960's.

Do we conclude that watching Spy shows can raise the level of paranoia in youth to make them susceptible to religious ideology, or is it the deprivation of good spy shows after watching them that leads to it?

I never joined any religious group, although I did consider myself a "Hippie" for a while. Perhaps the pin-up sex and cute, choreographed manly violence worked as an antidote to religious ideology

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Ahh, a fellow "tongues speaker"! I went through the "born again" thing at age 15. No ghostly figures though. Got the holy spirit a year or so later. I did not consider myself a Pentecostal, but rather a "charismatic". Like you, I can still do it today.

Of course, there is the scientific explanation - that the white ghostly figure you saw was really the ghost of Mary Worth, but not knowing that, your mind rationalized it into a vision of an angel or Jesus. Amen!

Good ol' Napoleon Solo and Illya Kuryakin, and of course Mr Waverly and that nifty secret complex underneath the tailor shop. I'm sure you also got into Emma Peel, Major John Steed and "Mother" of The Avengers, and maybe even Emma's replacement, Tara King. Emma's advice to Tara: "Ahem. He [Steed] likes his tea stirred anti-clockwise" [miming a stirring motion with her finger]."

That is good advice for all. You don't suppose she was really indicating how Steed liked his mushroom tea ... Jamaica style?

DCH (post not meant to mean much of anything really ...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

When I was 13 I converted to xianity - was born again. My mum was in hospital for a thyroid operation, my parent's marriage was rocky - possible divorce in 1966 in UK.

We had strange xian babysitters who sent me to bed at 8:00pm instead of allowing me to stay up and watch the Man from Uncle. I can't remember, but me, a quiet grammar school swot, probably had a row, I remember crying and praying myself and then seeing a white ghostly figure in my room and then accepting Jesus.

I would say I learned this trick described above of the Jewish mystics, but with a lot less oomph.

A few years later I was "baptised in the Holy spirit" and can still speak in tongues.

I would argue different people have different abilities to meet the gods, and stress, religious rituals, drugs are all ways to the gods, which is probably related to getting direct access to the right brain.

Strange week this, In Science we are discussing that the universe is in fact eternal, in evolution, we probably have a complete theory of abiogenesis, and here we have neurological, medicinal discussions of religious visions.

What are we going to do with all these redundant religious buildings?

Solo · 10-19-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Yes, this is very likely: BTW, in the thread on Doherty's new book, there is a charge in M.Felix against Christians practising secret and nocturnal rites.

I also believe the Lazarus story, originated in a real incident around a bapismal ritual involving sleep deprivation.

Jiri

Interesting theory, sleep deprivation/hallucinogenics resulting in a movement which has lasted more than two thousand years.

...did not forget to count in the years when the Jesus movement was in his diapers, good boy !

Quote:

If we add the creation of false memories into the history of early Christianity then we get a good picture of it's origins, not.

This is a freethinkers' forum, arnoldo: you know, people who are not afraid to think out of a box. You evidently have not met many of those, so you are excused for believing we fall short of the intellectual rigour of a Jesuit college.

Jiri

Clivedurdle · 10-19-2009, 09:31 AM

Our neurology and what substances, ways of sitting, practices, deprivation etc do to us is a very logical and reasonable approach to understanding our religiousness and how it evolved.

If gods didn't do it, isn't it obvious that our mind body complex, societies and learning might have some relationship?

And which ex polytechnic will sponsor our research into spy films of the sixties, teenage angst, and religious behaviours ?

http://www.billyspot.com/the-jesus-g...-billy-graham/

Quote:

The Jesus Generation by Billy Graham

Posted by Kevin D. Hendricks on January 22, 2009

Take a retro ride into Christianity circa 1971 with your favorite crusading hipster, Billy Graham. That’s the basic feel of The Jesus Generation by Billy Graham.

In a book that’s understandably out-of-print, Graham tries to “rap” with the youth of America and get them to “turn on” to Jesus. Graham often borrows campy ’60s and ’70s expressions in an attempt to connect with the younger generation, and 30 years later it’s kind of funny.

andrewcriddle · 10-19-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Years ago I remember finding a passage in one of the books of Christian Apocrypha (those Gospels and Acts which didn't quite make it into the canon) where the disciples, hiding in dismay after Jesus' execution, had "their heads between their knees" (the classic posture of a mystic preparing for a trance through controlled breathing), but I have not been able to find it since.

I was pretty sure it was in the Ante Nicene Fathers series of Roberts & Donaldson, probably volume VIII (the big one), but am not getting anywhere with the index or a quick look-see. Is there a searchable version of the Christian Apocrypha online? I've found one that has them chapter by chapter, but that would involve a LOT of effort to search.

Have you tried the Google Search within a site or domain option using www.ccel.org?

eg: "knees" at www.ccel.org

I tried a google search of Roger's excellent site.

The best I came up with was this from the syriac_acts_of_john

Quote:

She then said to him: "Dost thou not know, my son, what thou seest? This is our lady, and her image descended from heaven, and she nourishes all flesh." He then, a youth in his body, but exalted above the whole garland of his brethren, the holy virgin John, broke out into anger with her and said: "Hold thy peace, old woman! for thy mind has become enfeebled by sacrifices of unclean things. Talk not to me of the daughter of Satan." But she stooped down, and filled her fists with dust and gravel, and scattered it in his eyes; and he left (her) and departed thence. And he went a little (way) off, and knelt down, and was praying and supplicating. And he placed his face between his knees from the sixth hour to the ninth, and was weeping, groaning and saying:...

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 10-19-2009, 12:16 PM

MM,

I didn't know you could do that. The most sophisticated search method I have used is use of "quotation marks." It also helps to use unique words with the quoted phrase, plus keep the number of words in quotation marks down to 2 or 3.

Unfortunately, I still could not find it. Perhaps it was "face" rather than "head" or "legs" instead of "knees," or something.

DCH (lunch)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Years ago I remember finding a passage in one of the books of Christian Apocrypha (those Gospels and Acts which didn't quite make it into the canon) where the disciples, hiding in dismay after Jesus' execution, had "their heads between their knees" (the classic posture of a mystic preparing for a trance through controlled breathing), but I have not been able to find it since.

I was pretty sure it was in the Ante Nicene Fathers series of Roberts & Donaldson, probably volume VIII (the big one), but am not getting anywhere with the index or a quick look-see. Is there a searchable version of the Christian Apocrypha online? I've found one that has them chapter by chapter, but that would involve a LOT of effort to search.

Have you tried the Google Search within a site or domain option using www.ccel.org?

eg: "knees" at www.ccel.org

10-18-2009, 09:05 AM	#21
DCHindley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mondcivitan Republic Posts: 2,550	Seriously ... Years ago I remember finding a passage in one of the books of Christian Apocrypha (those Gospels and Acts which didn't quite make it into the canon) where the disciples, hiding in dismay after Jesus' execution, had "their heads between their knees" (the classic posture of a mystic preparing for a trance through controlled breathing), but I have not been able to find it since. I was pretty sure it was in the Ante Nicene Fathers series of Roberts & Donaldson, probably volume VIII (the big one), but am not getting anywhere with the index or a quick look-see. Is there a searchable version of the Christian Apocrypha online? I've found one that has them chapter by chapter, but that would involve a LOT of effort to search. DCH

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