Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohmi · 07-03-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elevator

...definiton of altruism: "the unselfish motivation to do good for others, without expecting reward or recognition (in some instances at the expense of your own welfare)"...

-1.- Human beings are equipped with a self , it is thus not possible to be 'un-self-ish' unless the self is taken away [by means of absolute truth , as with the very few saints of this world ]

-2.- Each human being thus has its own idea of what 'good' is , not based on its childlike conscience, but upon what the world has taught it to think... subjective, relative thoughts , diverse inconsistent subjective 'moralities' framed mostly in the ideas of the local 'culture'.

-3.- motivation without reward or acknowledgment ... for which most societies would label one insane and punish one for showing them up for the inadequacies of modern life to the spirit of truth and Love... there is a reason why almost all true saints and prophets are killed...

elevator · 07-03-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

Once again, it is YOUR assumption that morality evolves , but it cannot use evolution unless it is genetically determined ... which it is not.

Morality is relative and subjective, allowing it to change during life [unlike one's genes]

Simple observation of children shows how they learn the false values of their parents/society , and indeed the morality of the world is declining as parents have less time for their children [in many families both parents have to work to pay the mortgage]

Thus the morality of whole nations is declining due to the immoral acts of international bankers ... this then clearly has nothing to do with genetics or evolution.

The barriers to the innate altruism of the human being are the immensely powerful inhibitons of the brain, the power of denial, the ablity to lie to oneself ... there is no way through these barriers by human effort , the conflict reains life-long in almost all people ... God alone offers the solutions :-

-1.- For a few whom God requires at Jesus' return to be saints ,ready to serve as a perfect priesthood, God offers the truth now , in this life [John 16:13]

-2.- For the many God offers freedom from the enslavement of this world (through death and resurrection to a righteous new earth where the many can at last live altruistic Loving lives. [2 Peter 3:13 ,Rev 7: 9-10])

The solution of evolution to mankind is toallow us to kill off the very species on which we depend for food, and so mankind is just an evolutionary dead end ... we seriously never can acknowledge the absolute morality of Love within us [no-one can deny that love is right, but so very few DO it to all people all the time , one in a million only,,, whom God chose from the beginning to be the firstfruit saints of this earth]

It is thus clear that most men cannot be moral, cannot even be true to ourselves [unlke all other animals] , but te solution to our immorality is outside us, beyond us , we just cannot Love because we use the world as our guide, not our deepest desire of heart ... genetics will not save us from ourselves, only God can do so, but such a 'costly' lesson in terms of human suffering [soon to escalate to unprecedented levels as mankind's immorality climaxes and God allows men to destroy themselves for sake of the inane inability to stop being greedy for more]

Is evolution evolving a better breed of mankind? Clearly not! things are getting worse rather quickly ... and the reason is that it really is not a genetic matter at all, so nothing to do with evolution ...

My point has been all along; there is no connection between God and morality. I realize you disagree with me on that, but I think there is sufficient proof in the animal kingdom to show the evolutionary benefits of basic morality in a social setting. I have provided several links portraying how this is not simply MY assumption. Do not make the mistake either; of thinking that I am claiming that evolution can bring about complex ethical philosophies, because those are the results of human intelligence. But basic moral understanding is essential for social coherence.

Now to the current state of the planet; I totally agree that we are certainly in an extremely dire situation with global warming, overpopulation, resource misuse/overuse, and many other problems. But these problems have nothing to do with evolution (genetically we are very much the same people today as we were seveal thousand years ago). The cause of these problems are complex indeed, but these causes do not include evolution away from morality or disbelief in God. Instead they include complex cultural, sociological and political problems.

ohmi · 07-03-2008, 08:32 PM

It really makes no difference to the point whose assumption that it was originally , human altruism is not inherited, it is not genetic, thus it has nothing to do with evolution since evolution only operates on inherited characteristics.

As to the world's problems, the source is not very complicated to see ... it is mankind that is greedy and so allows greed in the few given power over the money supply , power with which they have created wars , timed slumps, propagated human misery for profit when they already have more than enough money ...

It is mankind that blinds others with false propaganda to the proof that we are destroying the very world upon which we depend for life ,mankind that censors the media to prevent dissemination of the truth about the evil which runs most people's lives.

Mankind is thus our own worst enemy, we simply do not control greed and exploitation of people by the few who swindled their way to power over the many ... so we pay the price of ignoring the well-known truth that power corrupts

Quote:

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
... The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating. -Thomas Jefferson

George S · 07-04-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

It really makes no difference to the point whose assumption that it was originally , human altruism is not inherited, it is not genetic, thus it has nothing to do with evolution since evolution only operates on inherited characteristics.

Behaviors are inherited. We call these instinctive behaviors.

You don't have to teach a baby to cry or suck.

So, my question is, what distinguishes this behavior you call "human altruism" from other behaviors?

All behaviors, even those that are the result of cognition, like helping another sentient being with no thought of reward or payback, are done because the alternative is 'worse' in some way. Maybe it is only a little 'worse' -- you just don't like the kind of a person who would not be 'altruistic' in that identical situation.

If you are convinced that some behaviors are not caused by the inherited characteristics of a given entity, what causes these characteristics?

When I think about the list of characteristics, I see none that are not inherited.

George S · 07-04-2008, 09:35 AM

And, of course, the ability to learn (an inherited characteristic) allows an individual to alter or override their instinctive behavior. We teach our children morality. By the way we act mostly. Including modeling generous behavior.

ohmi · 07-05-2008, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

It really makes no difference to the point whose assumption that it was originally , human altruism is not inherited, it is not genetic, thus it has nothing to do with evolution since evolution only operates on inherited characteristics.

Behaviors are inherited. We call these instinctive behaviors.

You don't have to teach a baby to cry or suck.

So, my question is, what distinguishes this behavior you call "human altruism" from other behaviors?

Even scientists admit that human beings are distinct in that most human behaviour is acquired ,not instinctive , not genetic ... but altruism is the deep default in human behaviour , the 'child' in us who never gets to do what it most desires to do :-

Quote:

Matthew 18:3 and said—Verily, I say unto you, Except ye turn and become as the children, in nowise, shall ye enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

The singular ability of mankind as an animal, is our ability to lie, notably to ourselves , and these lies determine our lives , our ways , and are aquired from others.

The escape from these lies is beyond the self to do [even in deepest meditation] ,so the escape is effected from outside , from God as the reservoir of all truth that men deny within ...

We can become aware of our lies to ourselves but still remain enslaved to the ways of the world until the release by God [John 16:13] , but this is not offered to many before death [since god requires but very few , one in a million, as the priests who will later assist the many to return to Love/altruism

Altruism then is distinct in being our witness of the spirit, that our reality is the same as God, spirit, not the 'physical' ... it is a mistake then to conflate the spiritual with the genetic.

Quote:

All behaviors, even those that are the result of cognition, like helping another sentient being with no thought of reward or payback, are done because the alternative is 'worse' in some way. Maybe it is only a little 'worse' -- you just don't like the kind of a person who would not be 'altruistic' in that identical situation.

If you are convinced that some behaviors are not caused by the inherited characteristics of a given entity, what causes these characteristics?

When I think about the list of characteristics, I see none that are not inherited.

Your conclusions come from your assumptions, which in turn come from your acquired faith ... thus to see through them will only come from observation that they are indeed relative [conditional] and that one can only truly have faith [without lying to oneself] in the absolute, never in the relative...

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07-04-2008, 09:35 AM	#215
George S Contributor Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 16,498	And, of course, the ability to learn (an inherited characteristic) allows an individual to alter or override their instinctive behavior. We teach our children morality. By the way we act mostly. Including modeling generous behavior.

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