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Old 11-27-2008, 04:19 PM   #111
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IMO you exhibit a disregard and a lack of knowledge of all other strands of evidence except the internal documentary textual evidence, on the supposition that you are dealing with something authentic and of historical value.
Your opinion about what my suppositions are, like your other opinions, is unsupported by evidence. I do not make the suppositions you think I do. You don't know what I think, because you're not interested in what you think. You are interested only in appearing to bolster your own position, and it is easier for you to do this by attacking what you imagine (wrongly) my opposing position to be.
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The problem that you either fail to admit or fail to acknowledge is that the entire package of new testament canonical literature, and every single bit of ancient history about the christians before Constantine, went across the desk of one single person - Eusebius of Caesarea.
It is true that I neither 'admit' nor 'acknowledge' this: the reason being that there is no evidence that it is true.
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Comments by Arius of Alexander, Emperor Julian, Nestorius formerly of Constantinople, and an in-depth political analysis of the Arian controversy, the Nestorian controversy, the Origenist controversy and the controversy over Julian's invectives -- these things are all easily and simply explained
Only if a biassed selection is made of the evidence to be explained.
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by entertaining the notion that the New Testament was a fiction of Constantine, and the NT apochypha were written as slanderous additional stories to the one already complete NT canon. Pontius Pilate backs Asclepius as the healing power behind the healing of Jesus Henry.
Pilate said no such thing.
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Pilate should know. Wasn't he an eyewitness?
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Old 11-27-2008, 08:48 PM   #112
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IPontius Pilate backs Asclepius as the healing power behind the healing of Jesus Henry.
Pilate said no such thing.
Dear J-D,

The author of "The Acts of Pilate" puts these words into the mouth of Pilate. Why would he do that do you think?

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:10 PM   #113
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Pilate said no such thing.
Dear J-D,

The author of "The Acts of Pilate" puts these words into the mouth of Pilate. Why would he do that do you think?

Best wishes,


Pete
Don't play Socrates.
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:36 PM   #114
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Don't play Socrates.
Dear J-D,

"Strive to give back
the Divine in yourselves
to the Divine in the All."


Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:01 PM   #115
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Don't play Socrates.
Dear J-D,

"Strive to give back
the Divine in yourselves
to the Divine in the All."


Best wishes,


Pete
I gather from the above that this thread is done with, and Pete has not convinced anyone here that Arius wrote any apocryphal Acts?
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:03 PM   #116
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JSTOR: 'Superstitio' in the "Codex Theodosianus" and the Persecution of the Pagans

...... religion of the Christians by encouraging theological disputes: "The plain and simple religion of the Christians he obscured by a dotard's superstition"
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:24 PM   #117
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JSTOR: 'Superstitio' in the "Codex Theodosianus" and the Persecution of the Pagans

...... religion of the Christians by encouraging theological disputes: "The plain and simple religion of the Christians he obscured by a dotard's superstition"
Another proof of the fact that Peter consistently misreads what he quotes , misquotes what he reads, and sees in the material he quotes only what he wants to see.

Here's the context of Pete's quote:

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The conceptual connection between superstitio, defined as illicit divination or magic, and excessive fear of the divine is made explicit in a law A.D. 297, which legislates against sorcerers (maleficis) and Manichees, both of which groups are accused of devising superstitious doctrines.23 In fact, this connection between divination, magic, and excessive religious fear-all subsumed by the term superstitio in legal usage-lies behind the persecution of Christians in the early Empire; Suetonius' qualification of Christianity as a malefica superstitio almost certainly implies charges of magical crafts brought against Christians.24 And as Janssen has observed in discussion of Nero's persecution of Christians, "the incomprehensible formulas of Christian liturgy could readily be interpreted as a dangerous kind of magic conjuration".25 Such acts had always been severely punished, and continued to be so punished in the late empire, as indicated by the legislation cited above. Only Christian writers, stirred no doubt by the labeling of their own beliefs as superstitio, use this word consistently not only to refer to the irrational or excessive religion of others, but to label those attitudes and beliefs as morally wrong. By this term, Christian writers draw the line between the false beliefs of pagans and the true, correct beliefs of Christians. Lactantius states the concept succinctly: religio veri dei cultus est, superstitio falsi. 26 Similarly, Tertullian refers to paganism as superstitio romana or superstitio gentilium; and the Fathers of the Church continue this usage.27

In sum, the term superstitio is used in the Codex Theodosianus to separate normative from non-normative religious practices. However, as I have tried to demonstrate in this paper, the ambiguities inherent in the term superstitio have to be considered in analysis of the legal codes from the first half of the fourth century from the Latin West. In this period Christianity was not yet the norm. Consequently, the Christians were not yet able to enforce the Christian definition of the term, whereas pagan administrators-especially at Rome-were in a position to interpret the codes with the traditional legal meaning of superstitio. By the last quarter of the fourth century, the norm, as regards official religious practices, is clearly Christianity; in the legal codes, this term is used consistently to designate the wrong religious beliefs of others, heretics and Jews as well as pagans. Thus, the use of superstitio in the
Codex Theodosianus reflects the processes whereby the Christianisation of the Roman state took hold; and by tracing its legal usage we have seen how Christianity gradually came to be defined as the norm and paganism was relegated to the world of pravam superstitionem. It seems a fitting epilog to this study to note that although the Christian definition of superstitio came to be uniformly used in the Theodosian Code, this was not its only attested definition even at the end of the fourth century. On the contrary, the polemical overtones and inherent ambiguities of superstitio were seized upon by at least one pagan writer in the last quarter of the century; Ammianus Marcellinus, writing in the West in the late 380's, used superstitio to refer to Christian heretical sects, like the Manichees.62 Amm. Marc. 13.2.11.And in a prominent passage, Ammianus) accused Constantius of superstitio, charging that Constantius had corrupted the simple religion of the Christians by encouraging theological disputes: "The plain and simple religion of the Christians he obscured by a dotard's superstition, and by subtle and involved discussions about dogma". ( Amm. Marc.2 1.16.18:C hristianamre ligionema bsolutame t simplicema nili superstitione confundens, in qua scrutanda perplexius quam componenda gravius excitavit discidia plurima ..."] The adjective Ammianus uses to describe Constantius' superstitio is significant; anilis superstitio is a phrase borrowed from Cicero. [Cicero, De nat. deorum 11.20; III.92; De domo sua 105; De div. 1.7; 11.19; 125}. Clearly, Ammianus is using this phrase to evoke the Ciceronian and traditional Roman disdain for excessive fear of the divine; he is not using superstitio in its Christian frame of reference (i.e. paganism or heresy.) Given the date and the well-known Christian definition of paganism as superstitio or deisidaimonfa, the polemical intention of Ammianus is clear. Superstitio is not a charge that can beleveled at pagans alone. [A. Momigliano, Popular Religious Beliefs and the Late Roman Historians, Church History 8 (1972) 1-18, remarks Ammianus' polemical intent. For Ammianus' other references to superstitio, see Amm. Marc. 15.3.2; 18.4.1; 25.4.17.]

It would go far outside the limits of this study to analyze the usage of superstitio in fourth century literature in general. However, the polemical intent of Ammianus' remark is revealing, for it suggests, as did the ambiguous definition of superstitio in the early fourth century codes, the nature of the ideological and religious significance attached to the term superstitio in the later Roman Empire.
Jeffrey
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:11 PM   #118
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JSTOR: 'Superstitio' in the "Codex Theodosianus" and the Persecution of the Pagans

...... religion of the Christians by encouraging theological disputes: "The plain and simple religion of the Christians he obscured by a dotard's superstition"
Why are you citing this, Pete? How does it relate to Arius or Leucius Charinus?
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:49 PM   #119
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JSTOR: 'Superstitio' in the "Codex Theodosianus" and the Persecution of the Pagans

...... religion of the Christians by encouraging theological disputes: "The plain and simple religion of the Christians he obscured by a dotard's superstition"
Why are you citing this, Pete?
Dear Toto and Jeffrey,

I do not have access to JSTOR. Thanks Jeffrey for the context.

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How does it relate to Arius or Leucius Charinus?
The Hellenic author Ammianus describes (in Latin) the (fourth century) christian religion as plain and simple. He goes on to say that the son of the man who had Arius poisoned "obscured [the christian religion] by a dotard's superstition". I was of course naturally interested as to what the author of the article had to say on what the reliable Ammianus is saying here.

How "christian" was Constantine?
How "christian" was Arius?
How "hellenic" was Constantine?
How "hellenic" was Arius?

Can anyone perceive there are four questions here and not two? The world is a billion shades of grey - it is not black and white. Modern commentors argue over Constantine. Whether or not Constantine actually subscribed to the "christian religion" in an outward sense at all before he knew the end was immanent. So exactly how christian was Constantine? He was an autocrat. What is a fourth century autocratic military general to a modern scholar?

And exactly how christian was Arius if at all? He was an ascetic. What's "an ascetic" to a modern scholar? Modern scholars have yet to look at Arius of Alexandria, as something other than an authodox christian. He may have been far from this. He is known to have been the cause of great blasphemy. His writings according to Constantine cause great harm to the authodox. We know that the authodox were searching high and low for all sorts of heretical tractates. What were these? My claim is that his writings are under our eyes, and we do not recognise them for what they are. The apochrypha of the new testament. The Nag Hammadi tractate TAOPATTA - the Acts of Peter and the 12.

Mainstream's response: The NT corpus was written in an unkown century by unknown authors in greek for a greek audience as was much of the "earlier" NT apochryphal corpus, except some of that (early tractates) continued to perhaps the late fourth century. The mainstream response is uninspiring. I am only offering an alternative within the bounds of all the evidence.

My claim is that the long lost "Songs of Arius" are not in fact long lost, but have been preserved from the fourth century as the (larger bulk of) the new testament apochryphal corpus. When does the coinage of the Roman Emperors cease to patronise Asclepius, the son of Apollo, the son of Zeus? Why did Constantine utterly destroy competing religions including the religion of all the Hellenes and their temples (and in the end libraries)? What resistance is recorded? Eusebius?

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:21 PM   #120
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Why are you citing this, Pete?
Dear Toto and Jeffrey,

I do not have access to JSTOR. Thanks Jeffrey for the context.

Quote:
How does it relate to Arius or Leucius Charinus?
The Hellenic author Ammianus describes (in Latin) the (fourth century) christian religion as plain and simple. He goes on to say that the son of the man who had Arius poisoned "obscured [the christian religion] by a dotard's superstition". I was of course naturally interested as to what the author of the article had to say on what the reliable Ammianus is saying here.

How "christian" was Constantine?
How "christian" was Arius?
How "hellenic" was Constantine?
How "hellenic" was Arius?
The article you cited does not mention Arius at all. It says this about Constantine:

'After the defeat of Licinius in A.D. 324, Constantine was in control of the whole Empire. According to Eusebius, it was then that Constantine issued a law which forbade "the disgusting idolatry performed of old in city and country, so that neither cult statues be erected, oracles (or haruspices) be consulted, or sacrifices performed". This law, cited by Eusebius, is not extant. Given the evidence however, it seems likely that Constantine did pass such a law but that it was a local law, applicable only in parts of the Eastern Empire; Eusebius supports this view, for he records Constantine's actions against pagan shrines only in the Eastern and never in the Western Empire. Indeed, it is the limited and local intent of this law which, according to Barnes, explains its loss and why Eusebius does not cite it verbatim. Moreover, Constantine never legislated against sacrifice in the West, which is why Firmicus Maternus, some ten years later, urges Constantine's sons to do precisely that. Constantine never prohibited paganism per se, in the Latin west, nor did he renounce his position as Pontifex Maximus. However sincere a Christian, Constantine was also a consummate politician, well aware of the ongoing force of paganism and imperial cult, especially in Italy.'
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Can anyone perceive there are four questions here and not two? The world is a billion shades of grey - it is not black and white. Modern commentors argue over Constantine. Whether or not Constantine actually subscribed to the "christian religion" in an outward sense at all before he knew the end was immanent. So exactly how christian was Constantine? He was an autocrat. What is a fourth century autocratic military general to a modern scholar?
To a modern scholar, a fourth-century autocratic military general (is there such a thing as a 'non-military general') is a fourth-century autocratic military general (what else?). Also, to a modern scholar, 'a fourth-century autocratic military general' is an accurate but incomplete description of Constantine.
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And exactly how christian was Arius if at all? He was an ascetic. What's "an ascetic" to a modern scholar?
To a modern scholar, an ascetic is an ascetic. What else?
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Modern scholars have yet to look at Arius of Alexandria, as something other than an authodox christian.
On the contrary, modern scholars do not regard Arius as Orthodox (by the way, Pete, is your use of the spelling 'authodox' intended to make a polemical point, or are you just unaware of the dictionary spelling?).
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He may have been far from this. He is known to have been the cause of great blasphemy. His writings according to Constantine cause great harm to the authodox. We know that the authodox were searching high and low for all sorts of heretical tractates.
I don't know that and I don't recall your producing any evidence of such a search.
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What were these? My claim is that his writings are under our eyes, and we do not recognise them for what they are.
We know what your claim is. The article you cited says nothing relevant to this claim and provides no evidence to support it.
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The apochrypha of the new testament. The Nag Hammadi tractate TAOPATTA - the Acts of Peter and the 12.

Mainstream's response: The NT corpus was written in an unkown century by unknown authors in greek for a greek audience as was much of the "earlier" NT apochryphal corpus, except some of that (early tractates) continued to perhaps the late fourth century. The mainstream response is uninspiring.
I don't understand what you mean by 'uninspiring' in this context, nor do I understand why you think it is relevant in this context whether something is 'inspiring' or not.
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I am only offering an alternative within the bounds of all the evidence.

My claim is that the long lost "Songs of Arius" are not in fact long lost, but have been preserved from the fourth century as the (larger bulk of) the new testament apochryphal corpus. When does the coinage of the Roman Emperors cease to patronise Asclepius, the son of Apollo, the son of Zeus? Why did Constantine utterly destroy competing religions including the religion of all the Hellenes and their temples (and in the end libraries)? What resistance is recorded? Eusebius?
According to the passage I just quoted from the article you cited, Constantine never did utterly destroy competing religions.
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