aa5874

I did NOT confuse Apion with Justin of Tiberius. I wrote, "If Origen was aware of Apion who mentioned Josephus........."

Now if Wikipedia is right Apion did NOT die before Josephus was born. You may be confused about the birth of Josephus and the death of Apion.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apion

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

Again, your claim is highly illogical that Antiquities of the Jews was not well known.

Hundreds of years after Antiquities of the Jews was composed its contents was known.

Against Celsus It makes zero sense for an interpolator to manipulate books that are unknown, were not read, and were composed 200 years earlier.

anethema

Again we have 1st cen theology disguised as history. aa's take on it is non falsifiable. That puts him in an unassailable position, of course on an internet forum , not in the halls of "acedemia". Please someone tell me if Crossan is wrong or just plain misguided in his "The birth of Christianity".

aa5874

Academia is assailable. Just read "Did Jesus Exist?".
The "halls of academia" have fallen.

If Crossan used the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings as credible historical accounts then whatever he claims about the Birth of Christianity is likely to be wrong.

Now, it is claimed the Pauline writings were interpolated but such a claim was made before any evidence was presented to show that the Pauline writings themselves were early and the uniterpolated Pauline writings have not ever been found.

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

You seem to be very confused about Apion.

You are correct that he did not die before Josephus was born, but still he wrote all his works before Josephus wrote anything.

Josephus was born in 37. Apion died between 45-48. I do not believe that Josephus wrote his "Antiquities" when he was 8-11 years old. Apion, of course, never mentions Josephus in his writing. Rather it is Josephus who mentions Apion.

Here is your precise statement in your Oct 3rd post:

We know that "Antiquities" was written in the early 90's. How could Apion who died circa 45-48 have known about "Antiquities?" written some 45 years after he died?

While I admire your enthusiasm for wishing to prove that Josephus' "Antiquities" was a well known work before Eusebius, there is simply no real evidence to support it.

As far as forgers using lesser known manuscripts, we have only to look at Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon which was based on a little known fictional manuscript by Solomon Spalding. From "Solomon Salding" - Wikipedia :

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

aa5874

How in the world am I confused when I corrected your confusion about the birth of Josephus and the death of Apion??

Examine your previous statement.

There is the evidence of your confusion.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Apion,

The question we were arguing was how well known Josephus' "Antiquities" was known and circulated before Eusebius.

Your point was that Apion was a witness to "Antiquities."

I responded that Apion died before Josephus was born. You correctly pointed out that this was an error. However, this is a trivial side issue to the main argument. The important thing is whether Apion wrote anything about "Antiquities." Since he died before Josephus was 11 years old and Josephus wrote "Antiquities" in his fifties, obviously he could not have been a witness.

My confusion over the exact birth and death dates of Apion and Josephus makes no difference to the main point at issue. Apion, although alive for the first 8-11 years of Josephus' life, did not write anything about Josephus' work "Antiquities." His works cannot be used to prove circulation and knowledge of Antiquities prior to Eusebius.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

PhilosopherJay

Naturally the above post should read "Hi aa5874" instead of "Hi Apion."

I have to make a new rule for myself - no posting after midnight.

aa5874

What??? You admit you were confused and it does NOT matter???

Please, I have been exonerated by the admittance of your confusion.

Now, in your confusion you claimed that Antiquities of the Jews was not well known up to the 4th century.

I have pointed out that writings attributed to Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen identified or implied that Josephus wrote the History of Jews and was aware of the Titles and Number of books and the contents of the 18th book, the very book that was manipulated.

It is highly illogical to claim Justin Marty did NOT know of the contents of Antiquities of the Jews when he referenced it when arguing about the very history of Jews.

It is highly illogical to argue that Origen did NOT know of the contents of 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews when he claimed Josephus wrote about John the Baptist.

It is not logical at all or reasonable to expect that when references are made to books that the contents are unknown.

Typically one makes references to books or recommend them by Title to imply knowledge of its contents.

Now, please read "Against Celsus".

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Third Base! I feel like I am in an Abbot and Costello skit.

Let us say that a person X says President Obama was the President responsible for the Vietnam War.
Person Y answers, "No he was no even born yet when the Vietnam War started."
Person X looks up President Obama's birth date and finds it was 1961 and the Vietnam War was mainly from 1965 to 1973. He says, "You were wrong, President Obama was born before the Vietnam War.
Person Y answers, "Yes, I was wrong, but that was a trivial mistake. The real issue is whether he could have been president during the Vietnam War and obviously he could not have.
Person X answers, "How could I be wrong when you were wrong?"

Person Y is unsure how to answer. He thought he was having a reasonable conversation and suddenly finds himself in an Abbott and Costello skit.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

aa5874

You have already admitted your confusion about the birth of Josephus and the death of Apion so let us move on.

Let us deal with your main confusion.

You claimed that "...."Antiquities" was never quoted directly before Eusebius and therefore, it is unlikely to have been in wide circulation.

Your claim is highly illogical and show confusion.

Even the very Gospel stories include events found ONLY in Antiquities.

1. The Taxing of Cyrenius in the NT is found Only in Antiquities of the Jews 18

2. John the Baptist in the NT is found Only in Antiquities of the Jews 18.

3. The execution of John the Baptist in the NT is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews. 18

4. The death of Herod in the Gospels is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews 19.

5. Origen claimed Josephus mentioned Jesus, James and John the Baptist in Antiquities of the Jews.

6. The contents of the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews was known by Origen a Church writer in the 3rd century.

7. The number of books on Antiquities of the Jews was known in the 3rd century by Origen a 3rd century writer.

8. Antiquities of the Jews was used by Church writers when arguing about the History of the Jews.

9. The 2nd-3rd century Tertullian acknowledged Josephus wrote the history of the Jews.

10. The 2nd century Irenaeus mentioned the contents of Antiquities of the Jews 2 when arguing about Moses.

11.The 2nd century Justin Martyr acknowledged Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus when arguing about the History of the Jews.