Dharma

All major cultures of the world are male dominated -- to this day the USA would have major trouble accepting a female president let alone a female CEO. I think in western society only the British seem not to mind following female leader(s).

However, unlike other religions, modern Hindu women do serve as priestess' in major Hindu ceremonies and they also have female gurus with their own organizations and schools. Hindu women, despite having a male dominated society are far more accepted in positions of power because of "goddess worship", nor are they considered stupider than men in fields of math and science. And I, as a Hindu/Buddhist women have fought members of my own family by gaining spiritual strength through gurus and wise women of my own tradition -thank you very much. And unlike Catholics/Muslims who say God is a male which is why priests should be male, Hindu women don't believe they are any less than males when it comes to matters of the soul.

It is upto women to decide how much bullshit they will take, Hinduism and Buddhism is about the self and for women to believe in themselves, not in some male God.

IsItJustMe

Ah... Would that we could all live in the paradise that was India before the coming of Islam.

Suttee was a lovely custom, wasn't it? VERY pro-woman. And how about that caste system? Really lets you know where you stand, doesn't it? Removes those silly ambiguities that may arise in Christian or Islamic culture.

All religion is bullshit. Indian society before the coming of the British was a class society, in fact a feudal society, and Hinduism and Buddhism played very similar roles in India to what Christianity did in Europe or Islam did in Saudi Arabia: It helped keep the commoners in their place.

I do not know enough of the history of India to know whether Hinduism fought any wars of expansion or not. I do know that it spread east from India to places such as Thailand. But as I think of it the known history of India before modern times is a history of conquests from the North, as the history of Europe is a history of conquests from the East. So I wouldn't be so quick to put it down to lack of motivation; it may just have been a matter of opportunity.

Finally: There is no question, of course, that Muslims have committed many atrocities on the Indian subcontinent. But I do not think that wholesale massacres of Muslims by Hindus, which have occurred, are quite the right response.

Dharma

yes, India was a paradise before the coming of Islam. <Edited>

Suttee was a minor practice and was practiced in Afghanistan, NOT India. And the Majority of Hindus didn't practice Suttee. The practice of suttee was only done by tribes that came to India from the northwest, (Rajputs and Saraswat brahmins who were in fact the middle eastern Magi) -- it was a NON VEDIC tradition.

As long as Buddhism was there, most people of the lower classes could escape the caste system...thanks to Islam the caste system revivified with a bunch of neo-non-Vedic barbarians who were initiated into Hinduism.

Now the paradise of the west? The Greeks had to kill Socrates for thinking differently, and the British themselves were the most classist people on earth...I forgot, only after peasants kicked aristocratic (Aryan) arses in Europe did democracy emerge.

Perhaps it will get into thick European heads that the Aryans were Indian...Aryan simply means the aristocracy, not "white people" and certainly not your low class peasants...and yes, before any invasions of India and China, they were the richest countries on earth...which is why there were legends of India's wealth as far back as Greece and why the Americas were found in desperation for finding a new route to India and China.
Islam can go back to Saudi Arabia and die there. Other countries became Hindus and Buddhist and Taoist through trade and missionaries NOT war -- this was when the Indian and Chinese empires were the largest on earth.

Religion got a bad name due to Christians and Muslims, pagans got a bad name thanks to Romans and Greeks who kept on trying to destroy other people's temples --- Hindus or Buddhists, Taoists pretty much kept to themselves...it was the religion of our ancestors, it is for us to correct and criticize, and criticize we did...and these same critics were not held for trial and executed -- India in that sense, was the most open ancient society there was -- unlike Greece.

And I would like to ask you one question:

1) European peasants were treated so badly that there were huge revolutions in Europe, if the pre-Islamic caste system was so bad, there would've/should've been a revolt...was it because even the peasants were enjoying a certain amount of wealth during this time?

It's because many of the Kings in India during the time of Buddhism were from peasant stock -- TADAA! Now think about that, India had peasants who became king...caste system, my ass!

croissant101

So far, Islam seems to be the worse religion. :down: I don't blame the Muslims though. They're just following what they believe. I want to clarify that I'm not trying to discriminate Muslims.

IsItJustMe

It's true that I am no expert on Indian history. But I DO know enough to know that suttee was practiced in India, by Hindus. Those who have questions on this score may consult Wikipedia; its prevalence may be in dispute but it plainly was practiced.

Of course, if we only consider people Hindus if they are nice, we may find that all Hindus are nice. But that is just playing word games. Or, a specific word game called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Now, are modern Pagans all nice? Well, if Dharma is a modern Pagan, I say no, because Dharma is not nice. When I say Dharma is not nice, what I mean is that she is defending things like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3419695.stm

I, for one, would not endorse the use of rape as a political tool, in respond to ANY provocation, but Dharma evidently does. But, keep in mind, she is MUCH more pro-woman than me.

Here is a nice page from an India free-thinkers website analyzing the role that Hinduism played in the riots:

http://www.mukto-mona.com/human_righ...riot_patel.htm

P.S. Dharma purports to have disproved the existence of the caste system by the use of logic. Someone tell me if you think that needs a response.

Dharma

No you yourself admitted that you know little about Indian history<Edited>:

I believe the barbarian anArya muslims burned alive a whole bunch of Hindu women and children on a train...http://www.vepachedu.org/Godhra-count.html

Sorry, if the Hindus responded in kind. And Hindus are NOT pagan, we are Hindu and Buddhists are Buddhist -- we are Arya...we will not be defined by you.


And in war with the barbarian muslims and Christians worst things happen than rape -- men and women are butchered.

You seem to have no logic or even facts to counter history.

Hindus must believe in themselves, those who believe in themselves will never be cowed down by cowards who want this entire world to be a slave to some God named Allah!

radagast

Agreed. I don't think it takes away from your point. I was only addressing that myopic issue, not your general thrust.

Glenn

IsItJustMe

Far be it from me to define you. I'm just saying whoever you are, if you or your religion is involved in raping or massacring people for political purposes I am going to be a little critical of it. And, more exactly, that I think you are an apologist for vicious criminals, and thoroughly contemptible. The fact that some Muslims killed some Hindus is no excuse for Hindus raping some Muslim women who weren't involved at all, and if that is what your religion teaches, well, your religion is full of shit. And don't say you're sorry when you're not; it's dishonest. Or maybe your religion teaches that dishonesty is OK?

Read the article from the free thinkers website. It does a good job of making the point that these riots were an outgrowth of communalist politics in which Hindu organizations played a major role. In other words, BJP had been standing on the sidelines fanning the flames and pretty soon there was a bonfire. BJP deserves much of the blame for that.

Dharma

No, My "religion" doesn't teach anything besides believing in yourself and doing good...Islam however teaches to kill anyone who doesn't believe in being a slave to their God Allah--- Islam kills.

You are currently attacking the victims...so now the Americans are to blame for 3000 deaths in the World Trade Center, right? Gosh, I wonder what kind of religion Americans follow for bombing the smitherinies out of the bastards who did this -- I mean you do know thousands of women and children were blown apart? War sucks doesn't it?

What a bull shit religion that is...I mean can you believe self defense is a part of human rights! And that Muslims better learn to respect others or have their own butts kicked? Is Israel being mean to those poor, poor Palestinians for blowing themselves up and killing Israeli citizens? GET REAL! The only people who are using religion for war are the muslims currently, even the Christians are quiet thanks to democracy.

I really want to know your moral stand on what you think a war is? A bed of roses? Islamic militants have declared war on the entire world killing innocent women and children on the way, and you expect the rest of the world to twiddle their thumbs right?

Yahzi

Monotheism.