Freethought & Rationalism Archive

VoxRat · 10-06-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

1) they name the author

They don't name the author.They mention a name, that YOU ASSUME is the author. "Naming the author" would be something like "By the hand of..." NOT "These are the generations of..."

Barbarian · 10-06-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Colophons are now quite well known as evidenced by this Wikipedia article ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colophon_%28publishing%29

And verily, Wiki sayeth:

Quote:

The colophon usually contained facts relative to the text such as associated person(s) (e.g., the scribe, owner, or commissioner of the tablet), literary contents (e.g., a title, "catch" phrase, number of lines), and occasion or purpose of writing. Colophons and "catch phrases" (repeated phrases) helped the reader organize and identify various tablets, and keep related tablets together.

Pretty similar to "These are the generations of X".

Ah, and I still don't get the 2=14 explanation. The way I read the KJV, the "2" part is definitely not general; it does not say that Noah was to take an as of yet unspecified number of pairs; it says he should take two of each kind. So, I think you should provide some more detailed explanation to this conundrum.

judge · 10-06-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Dave, is it correct then that you have not compared the two sets of "colophons" yourself. Seeing that you think the crucial evidence is in German?

If this is correct then how can you be so sure you are right?

I have not examined the ones described in the German text. But there have been several examples of colophons given right here on this thread, and the toledoths in Genesis are similar in two respects ...

1) they name the author
2) they come at the end of sections which contain information which would have been accessible to the author named in the toledoth.

Can you show me one that looks like the material in genesis?

FatherMithras · 10-06-2007, 02:52 PM

Dave, maybe you missed te part where cattle are erronously grouped in the 2 and 7 pairs thingy? You never answered that. Can someone PM dave with me about this?

Cege · 10-06-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

The colophon usually contained facts relative to the text such as associated person(s) (e.g., the scribe, owner, or commissioner of the tablet), literary contents (e.g., a title, "catch" phrase, number of lines), and occasion or purpose of writing. Colophons and "catch phrases" (repeated phrases) helped the reader organize and identify various tablets, and keep related tablets together.

I tried to point this out to afdave in an earlier post, but he must have missed it.

Colophons, according to the definition afdave cites, contain:

*facts relative to the text such as associated person(s) (e.g., the scribe, owner, or commissioner of the tablet)
*literary contents (e.g., a title, "catch" phrase, number of lines)
>>>and<<<
*occasion or purpose of writing

All of the ancient colophon examples we've seen to date do NOT resemble the toledoths of Genesis which merely give names which are NOT identified as the scribe, owner, or commissioner of the toledoth.

Dave Hawkins · 10-07-2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbarian

Ah, and I still don't get the 2=14 explanation. The way I read the KJV, the "2" part is definitely not general; it does not say that Noah was to take an as of yet unspecified number of pairs; it says he should take two of each kind. So, I think you should provide some more detailed explanation to this conundrum.

OK. Imagine you are a Boy Scout. Your pack leader says, "We're going on a hike tomorrow through the snow. Pack 2 changes of clothes because your clothes will probably get wet and you will want dry clothes to wear for the evening activities. Pack at least 4 pairs of socks because your feet will get especially cold unless you wear 2 pairs at all times." So his initial instruction was general in nature - 2 changes of clothes. His later instruction got more specific. Contradictory? No. Ditto for God's instructions about the animals.

Keith&Co. · 10-07-2007, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Pack 2 changes of clothes because your clothes will probably get wet and you will want dry clothes to wear for the evening activities. Pack at least 4 pairs of socks because your feet will get especially cold unless you wear 2 pairs at all times." So his initial instruction was general in nature - 2 changes of clothes. His later instruction got more specific. Contradictory? No. Ditto for God's instructions about the animals.

That's slip-out-of-seat funny?

That's wrong.

The scout leader changed from clothes to socks. God apparently changed from animals to animals. A contradiction.

Can you make it work where the scout leader changes from 'Get two pair of socks for the hike' to 'Get seven pair of sock for the hike' and it make sense?

Barbarian · 10-07-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbarian

Ah, and I still don't get the 2=14 explanation. The way I read the KJV, the "2" part is definitely not general; it does not say that Noah was to take an as of yet unspecified number of pairs; it says he should take two of each kind. So, I think you should provide some more detailed explanation to this conundrum.

OK. Imagine you are a Boy Scout. Your pack leader says, "We're going on a hike tomorrow through the snow. Pack 2 changes of clothes because your clothes will probably get wet and you will want dry clothes to wear for the evening activities. Pack at least 4 pairs of socks because your feet will get especially cold unless you wear 2 pairs at all times." So his initial instruction was general in nature - 2 changes of clothes. His later instruction got more specific. Contradictory? No. Ditto for God's instructions about the animals.

I don't see the validity of the analogy at all. Here's Genesis 6:19-20

Quote:

6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every [sort] shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep [them] alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

and then here is Genesis 7:3-4

Quote:

7:3 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

7:4 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

These are directly contradictory already, and then Genesis 7:8-9 completes the circle and reverts to one pair per kind, by saying:

Quote:

7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Your analogy would be more accurate if it did not rely upon the fuzziness of the term "change clothes". Do socks count as part of one change or not? The accurate analogy would have the boy scout leader saying "This is important: bring one pair of socks. I repeat this for those who did not hear it the first time: bring seven pairs of socks. Oh, and put that single pair of socks I was just talking about into the left pocket of your backpack."

Dean Anderson · 10-07-2007, 05:00 AM

I've been a very busy bee this weekend...

I downloaded a copy of the KJV text from Project Gutenberg (I find downloading a Bible from Project Gutenberg strangely ironic), and went through the whole Torah marking up and splitting out the text from each source.

So here it is.

At that link you will find each of the sources separated out as a single document, so that their distinct styles and narrative coherence can be seen. Plus, I have uploaded the JE combined text and the full combined Torah - each of which I have marked up in different colours to show how they are split.

I hope you guys appreciate all the work I do for you...

Dean Anderson · 10-07-2007, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbarian

Ah, and I still don't get the 2=14 explanation. The way I read the KJV, the "2" part is definitely not general; it does not say that Noah was to take an as of yet unspecified number of pairs; it says he should take two of each kind. So, I think you should provide some more detailed explanation to this conundrum.

OK. Imagine you are a Boy Scout. Your pack leader says, "We're going on a hike tomorrow through the snow. Pack 2 changes of clothes because your clothes will probably get wet and you will want dry clothes to wear for the evening activities. Pack at least 4 pairs of socks because your feet will get especially cold unless you wear 2 pairs at all times." So his initial instruction was general in nature - 2 changes of clothes. His later instruction got more specific. Contradictory? No. Ditto for God's instructions about the animals.

But that is not how the Genesis account structures it. It mentions specifics first, then repeats them with a different number.

For your analogy to work, the pack leader would have to say something along the lines of:

"We're going on a hike tomorrow through the snow. Pack 2 changes of each item of clothing; shirts, trousers, pairs of socks - 2 of each. Pack 7 changes of socks and 7 pairs of underpants. Put two of each item of clothing in your backpack."

The 7 does not clarify a general 2, since the 2 is already specific about the thing that the 7 refers to. The 7 contradicts the 2.

The point is not that this contradiction cannot be apologised for and "resolved".

The point is that - like all the apparent contradictions - it disappears when you split the text by style and age as the DH does.

What are the odds of that being coincidence, eh?

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10-06-2007, 02:52 PM	#674
FatherMithras Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 3,890	Dave, maybe you missed te part where cattle are erronously grouped in the 2 and 7 pairs thingy? You never answered that. Can someone PM dave with me about this?

10-07-2007, 05:00 AM	#679
Dean Anderson Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 6,947	I've been a very busy bee this weekend... I downloaded a copy of the KJV text from Project Gutenberg (I find downloading a Bible from Project Gutenberg strangely ironic), and went through the whole Torah marking up and splitting out the text from each source. So here it is. At that link you will find each of the sources separated out as a single document, so that their distinct styles and narrative coherence can be seen. Plus, I have uploaded the JE combined text and the full combined Torah - each of which I have marked up in different colours to show how they are split. I hope you guys appreciate all the work I do for you...

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