Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BeetleJuice · 07-08-2006, 02:17 AM

Haran, you ask if the morality of atheists is superior then that of Christians. now, i can't say anything about atheist morals, since atheists do not share a specific moral code.

But lets compare secular humanist morality with that of Christian morality.

Christian morality is based on the bible, while secular humanist morality is based on what is best for humanity.

In humanist morality, genocide, mass murder, rape, slavery, human sacrifice are always wrong. In Christianity they are also wrong except when god orders or approves them. Now the humanists moral code serves humanity, but the Christian moral code does not. Some Christians say that without believe in a god there is nothing that prevents people from commiting the most horrible crimes. But is the opposite not true, while in humanist morality above mentioned atrocities are always wrong, they are not always wrong in Christianity. So, what keeps Christians from murdering infidels? is it the bible, in which god has justified, commited or ordered these atrocities? The fact is that there is a precedent for all these crimes in the bible, so would not a Christian be more inclined to commit such crimes, because his/her god approved of it in the past?

Both sytems of morality are relative but while one is based on what is best for humanity, and the individual, the other is based on the word of an supposedly omnibenevolent god. An omnibenevelent god who has commited or approved of the most horrible crimes against humanity.

Jehanne · 07-08-2006, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriot7

Exactly because they aren't physical!! You're proving my point beautifully. Colors have a texture in our conscious, independant of the tinted light they reflect from a fabric or a canvas.

Colors are physical, though! This is why comets have tails that always point in the opposite direction from the Sun regardless of their motion through the solar system, because light exerts a pressure upon the particles of dust in the comet's tail. How about people who are color-blind, such as the inhabitants of the Micronesian island of Pingelap? By all accounts, these people live completely normal lives even though they only see the World in "black and white."

DBT · 07-08-2006, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran
for God to come down and properly reveal himself to everyone. Bye, bye free will...

Knowledge negates free will?
So this means that it's "bye, bye free will" for all of the inhabitants of heaven because they happen to be in the presence of God and therefore have full knowledge of His existence?

agnostos · 07-08-2006, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

As I mentioned would happen, everyone is focusing on my beilefs as a Christian. Let's get to the heart of the matter. Your beliefs.

If you do not condemn my beliefs or morality, then I have little problem with you. If you condemn my beliefs and morality as a Christian, then I say you have not a leg to stand upon.

By the way, there have been several misrepresentations of my positions. Please re-read my posts before you continue to respond or else we will simply be rehashing simple things.

By the way, to the guy who acted as if I'm confused, please, please read a little closer. I stated that this thread was a reaction to another thread. The atheists were dog-piling on me, so that is how I named the thread. I also stated that if they do not condemn my views and try to convert my as some wish to do, then I will also speak calmly and rationally with them. No confusion there, just a comprehension problem on your part.

The thing I see in this entire diatribe, a salient example of which is quoted above, is that it is all about YOU.

MY beliefs, MY morality, MY positions, MY God (my God!

).

You really want something that's pretty damn close to an absolute?

It ain't about YOU.

It's the hardest thing for a human being to learn. Many never get it. I'm still a student.

Getting a clue, however, goes a LONG way.

I think I read somewhere that in literature, one must not hesitate to kill one's little darlings. I think it's also true about belief systems.

Sven · 07-08-2006, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Militant atheists not wanting to convert people is an abosulte myth. They most definitely want to convert people, and that is one of Johnny Skeptics main goals if I am not mistaken

I may note that he explicitely says otherwise.

Quote:

It is also the goal of this entire website, otherwise why bother with such a site?

:wide:

Since this forum is not advertised in any way to Christians, how on Earth can its goal be deconverting anyone?

It's simply a place to meet likeminded people, without having to bother with the crap theists usually throw at us.

Sven · 07-08-2006, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

I have already stated that my beliefs are subjective. As I also already stated, please re-read my posts for a better understanding. What I am saying is that you nor any other atheist has a leg to stand on when criticizing the morals of Christians or the Bible, because your morality is also subjective. The best you can hope to say is "I don't like some of what you believe'. Well, I would simply say the same thing back...

In case you did not notice: There isn't only the distinction "subjective - objective". There are also distinctions like "rational - irrational" and "coherent - incoherent". It does not matter a shit if both our beliefs are subjective - the latter distinctions are far more important.

Sven · 07-08-2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Well, get rid of the police then...drat. I wonder what society will be like when you atheists and agnostics take over the world and begin to try and run things.

Well, just look at European countries. They are quite secular, and get along just fine.

Jehanne · 07-08-2006, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

Well, just look at European countries. They are quite secular, and get along just fine.

It should also be pointed out that the secular countries of Europe, after abolishing the death penalty (which is supported by many conservative Christians), saw their murder rates fall. Explain that!

Sven · 07-08-2006, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriot7

In the context you are using the word evidence you are correct. There is lots of physical evidence for naturalism because naturalism demands that only physical evidence be considered as an explanation. It defines what reality must be and then ignores the rest of human experience. And it is a false worldview.

Your strawman version certainly is a false worldview.

Quote:

I know that things like emotions and ideas exists. Naturalism fails to explain this. I know that the color red exists independant of a word or a space in the color spectrum.

I have no idea why you think that Naturalism} fails to explain this.

I also have no idea why you think that other worldviews can explain this.

Quote:

I can think of something red and if you were to open my skull and look at my brain you would not see what I was thinking!

Of course we could - not now, but we are approaching this. Neurology is already partly able to interpret brain signals.

Quote:

Consciousness is unexplainable by naturalism short of "brain states".

And what exactly is wrong about this?

Quote:

Further, if all that exists are natural things, physical things, then why should I consider your "truth claims"? Truth claims aren't physical things.

Umm, but they are natural things.

Quote:

They're ideas and ideas don't exist according to your philosophy.

Please point me to the part in the article which makes a stupid claim like this one.

Ellis · 07-08-2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ellis
I allow for the possibility that there is a God in the way that I allow for the possibilty that the sun will not rise tomorrow morning.

And would you look at that...It's a beautiful sunny morning.

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07-08-2006, 02:17 AM	#111
BeetleJuice Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 198	Haran, you ask if the morality of atheists is superior then that of Christians. now, i can't say anything about atheist morals, since atheists do not share a specific moral code. But lets compare secular humanist morality with that of Christian morality. Christian morality is based on the bible, while secular humanist morality is based on what is best for humanity. In humanist morality, genocide, mass murder, rape, slavery, human sacrifice are always wrong. In Christianity they are also wrong except when god orders or approves them. Now the humanists moral code serves humanity, but the Christian moral code does not. Some Christians say that without believe in a god there is nothing that prevents people from commiting the most horrible crimes. But is the opposite not true, while in humanist morality above mentioned atrocities are always wrong, they are not always wrong in Christianity. So, what keeps Christians from murdering infidels? is it the bible, in which god has justified, commited or ordered these atrocities? The fact is that there is a precedent for all these crimes in the bible, so would not a Christian be more inclined to commit such crimes, because his/her god approved of it in the past? Both sytems of morality are relative but while one is based on what is best for humanity, and the individual, the other is based on the word of an supposedly omnibenevolent god. An omnibenevelent god who has commited or approved of the most horrible crimes against humanity.

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