Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fortytwo · 10-12-2004, 03:32 PM

I died once...The only thing I remember could be described as a fuzzy sense of self, & feeling confronted with my own ego, it was unpleasant.
I attribute that experience to possible oxygen deprivation, or a malfunction in the brain. So, I can see where that could possibly be an explanation for OBEs.

whichphilosophy · 10-12-2004, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epictetus

There is a great deal of popular literature out there which "documents" people having had extra-corporeal experiences (out-of-body) and a related phenomenon, the Near-Death Experience. As far as I know, ALL of this literature is anecdotal in nature - accounts of people who had similar stories with similar elements.

I seem to recall that there have been some scientific experiments done by Duke University or elsewhere where researchers tried to verify if these experiences were repeatable and where they tried to document that the person was really out of their body by bringing back information they obtained when "out" such as a number hidden on top of a shelf in a specified room, etc.

Does anyone know if this kind of research has been done, what the precise findings were, and if the investigation continues or that the researchers came to the conclusion that the whole phenomenon was without merit?

This is purely anecdotal and based on personal experience, when one is out of the body perceptions can vary considerably. I did have one incident validated because the persons were there at the time it happened. I raised this with them some time later.

The interesting thing is that since experiencing this (once or twice before) any sort of exhaustion decreased, and personal awareness of the surroundings, ability to concentrate and increased reflexes was prevailent.

Also from having bad cases of flu once or twice a year and indications of rheumatism in the shoulder, vanished. In fact no illness whatsoever for about 16 years apart from what I recall a sore throat.

This has never fully happened just by wanting to do so. It happened, perhaps in the presence of some factors in most cases.

Since this cannot happen in predetermined conditions (and has not happened for some years) it would be difficult to do this now in a lab. Perhaps some can do this, but I don't know of their results.

However just like the existence of the supernatural it is not for one to try and convince others of this,just by their say so. The person can only judge on their experience in such cases and should not be expected to believe otherwise unless they feel comfortable believing this could be or is possible.

whichphilosophy · 10-12-2004, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BioBeing

I remember reading about the study you refer to, Epictetus, but can't track it down right now.

I did come across this:

I've seen some write ups on this before, but really it is difficult for the scientists to say whether this is for sure as stated in the quote.

I guess as a non scientist, opinions in science can be a conflict between maybe and maybe not. This is simply because they are doing their studies and research objectively and giving opinions in an unbiased manner.

Fortuna · 10-12-2004, 07:20 PM

The problem that I have with those who would claim that there is some mystical aspect to OBEs, is that these experiences are easily duplicated by the use of disassociative analgesics. Similiar experiences are also duplicated by PEAs and Tryptamines. This, in and of itself suggests that it is a function of brain chemistry. As I understnad it, the only OBEs that have verified events are all anecdotal. This is not a basis for proof nor evidence of psychic experiences. (Again, when it is easily duplicated by chemistry).

NDEs are another matter, though few studies with good protocols have been done. A dutch survey has been published by Lancet(12/15/2001) in which of 344 cases of CVA, 18% reported a type of NDE, not all of these were reported as pleasant experiences, as anecdotally pointed out by the previous poster.(nor do the majority of reports agree with Moody's OBE profile, in fact, anecdotally, quite unpleasant experiences have been reported).

Two of the best known reporters/investigators of NDEs are Dr Elizabeth Ross and Raymond Moody. Both of these suggest that these are proof of life after death. However, Moody has been criticized for his omissions of data, reported NDEs that do not fit his blissful description of the NDE (as mantioned above)

The Lancet article stated ;

Quote:

neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences.

I personally am not surprised by the last statement here, that the induced experience is not identical to an actual NDE, and for a simple reason. The "induced" experience is known by the user to be induced, whereas, it is perceived much differently simply by the circumstances of the NDE.

Nueroscience has all but eliminated that the mind exists separately from the physical brain. Add to this the fact that disassociatives, PEAs and tryptamines induce a similiar experience, I tend to hypothesize that OBEs, like NDEs, are functions of brain chemistry. Still, studies with well-defined protocols need to be done to verify that hypothesis.

whichphilosophy · 10-12-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortuna

The problem that I have with those who would claim that there is some mystical aspect to OBEs, is that these experiences are easily duplicated by the use of disassociative analgesics. Similiar experiences are also duplicated by PEAs and Tryptamines. This, in and of itself suggests that it is a function of brain chemistry. As I understnad it, the only OBEs that have verified events are all anecdotal. This is not a basis for proof nor evidence of psychic experiences. (Again, when it is easily duplicated by chemistry).

NDEs are another matter, though few studies with good protocols have been done. A dutch survey has been published by Lancet(12/15/2001) in which of 344 cases of CVA, 18% reported a type of NDE, not all of these were reported as pleasant experiences, as anecdotally pointed out by the previous poster.(nor do the majority of reports agree with Moody's OBE profile)

Two of the best known reporters/investigators of NDEs are Dr Elizabeth Ross and Raymond Moody. Both of these suggest that these are proof of life after death. However, Moody has been criticized for his omissions of data, reported NDEs that do not fit his blissful description of the NDE (as mantioned above)

The Lancet article stated ;

I personally am not surprised by the last statement here, that the induced experience is not identical to an actual NDE, and for a simple reason. The "induced" experience is known by the user to be induced, whereas, it is perceived much differently by the experience of the NDE.

Nueroscience has all but eliminated that the mind exists separately from the physical brain. Add to this the fact that disassociatives, PEAs and tryptamines induce a similiar experience, I tend to hypothesize that OBEs, like NDEs, are functions of brain chemistry. Still, studies with well-definied protocols need to be done to verify that hypothesis.

From what I've read, Neuroscience has mapped the brain showing various centres where the brains stimulus response mechanisms react, hence to certain emotions, stress etc, but this validates the brain as an advanced control panel and motor control system, with certain automotive functions such as heart, lungs, liver etc etc.

I have not seen a signel scientists stating with great certainty that we are not a soul/spirit whatever or the mind is seperate to the brain.

breezanne · 10-12-2004, 07:38 PM

Mind is not subject to material law, so whatever the universe is composed of, it is not purely material, and not purely subject to material law. Volition is a property of mind and mind alone. Neuroscience can and does demonstrate the connections between mental processes and physiological processes. It has nothing to say about the essential nature of reality, whether 'tis mind or matter, spirit or body. We are certain that mind creates convincing illusions of matter (we dream); we can merely suppose that matter somehow creates the first order (self-evident) phenomena of mind. Suppose all you like, but do not delude yourself that your beliefs have ever been proven correct.

Fortuna · 10-12-2004, 07:38 PM

Whichphilosophy said ;

Quote:

I have not seen a signel scientists stating with great certainty that we are not a soul/spirit whatever or the mind is seperate to the brain.

I agree, that few or none would state this with great certainty. It is at this point, only a hypothesis. As I said, more studies (with good protocols) should be done. Still, the evidence is very convincing that the mind and brain are one and the the same. Any evidence for a soul/spirit/whatever is, well, non-existent as far as I am aware. See a related thread here entitled "Could people stop claiming that there is evidence for the supernatural? "

Addendum;

See the article "The Ketamine Model of the Near Death Experience:
A Central Role for the NMDA Receptor" by Dr Karl Jansen at ;

http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=9264

Epictetus · 10-12-2004, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortuna

The problem that I have with those who would claim that there is some mystical aspect to OBEs, is that these experiences are easily duplicated by the use of disassociative analgesics. Similiar experiences are also duplicated by PEAs and Tryptamines. This, in and of itself suggests that it is a function of brain chemistry. As I understnad it, the only OBEs that have verified events are all anecdotal. This is not a basis for proof nor evidence of psychic experiences. (Again, when it is easily duplicated by chemistry).

NDEs are another matter, though few studies with good protocols have been done. A dutch survey has been published by Lancet(12/15/2001) in which of 344 cases of CVA, 18% reported a type of NDE, not all of these were reported as pleasant experiences, as anecdotally pointed out by the previous poster.(nor do the majority of reports agree with Moody's OBE profile, in fact, anecdotally, quite unpleasant experiences have been reported).

Two of the best known reporters/investigators of NDEs are Dr Elizabeth Ross and Raymond Moody. Both of these suggest that these are proof of life after death. However, Moody has been criticized for his omissions of data, reported NDEs that do not fit his blissful description of the NDE (as mantioned above)

The Lancet article stated ;

I personally am not surprised by the last statement here, that the induced experience is not identical to an actual NDE, and for a simple reason. The "induced" experience is known by the user to be induced, whereas, it is perceived much differently simply by the circumstances of the NDE.

Neuroscience has all but eliminated that the mind exists separately from the physical brain. Add to this the fact that disassociatives, PEAs and tryptamines induce a similiar experience, I tend to hypothesize that OBEs, like NDEs, are functions of brain chemistry. Still, studies with well-defined protocols need to be done to verify that hypothesis.

This was a great post, Fortuna. Very thoughtful and exactly getting at the heart of the matter. Perhaps I am just grasping at the old quest for immortality. But the anecdotal literature that I have read is quite compelling. I thoroughly understand that it may be heresay. But there seems to be a consistency to these experiences mentioned by numerous authors. If you have ever spoken to people who have experienced these extracorporeal sensations, they seem to be profoundly changed by the affair. Some of the accounts that I have read (again, anecdotal only) indicate that they are able to bring back details of the surrounding area and environs which they could not have obtained physically.

I don't know...again perhaps I'm just dissatisfied with a purely physical explanation of this. Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part. Has anyone out there ever had a near-death experience or out-of-body experience that could speak to my sentiment?

whichphilosophy · 10-12-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epictetus

This was a great post, Fortuna. Very thoughtful and exactly getting at the heart of the matter. Perhaps I am just grasping at the old quest for immortality. But the anecdotal literature that I have read is quite compelling. I thoroughly understand that it may be heresay. But there seems to be a consistency to these experiences mentioned by numerous authors. If you have ever spoken to people who have experienced these extracorporeal sensations, they seem to be profoundly changed by the affair. Some of the accounts that I have read (again, anecdotal only) indicate that they are able to bring back details of the surrounding area and environs which they could not have obtained physically.

I don't know...again perhaps I'm just dissatisfied with a purely physical explanation of this. Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part. Has anyone out there ever had a near-death experience or out-of-body experience that could speak to my sentiment?

In fact because the article quoted states maybes it is not actually refuting near death or out of the body experiences it is just speculationg they may not be true.

Well this does happen but it is difficult to look in too seriously at the merit of a scientific possibility of an event that occured as one that possibly did not occur.

Fortuna · 10-13-2004, 09:33 AM

Epictitus,

Thank you, and I think that you also bring up a very important aspect to this discussion. That is, that people WANT to believe that there is more than physical existence. You see, I want to believe it too. But, I dont think that this provides any evidence of it, consideration of the facts presented seem to rule it out. The weight of the evidence that 2 known chemicals, ketamine and MMDA (both amines) can consistently reproduce the OBE in almost any individual is evidentiary but not conclusive.

The article points out that anesthesiologists intentionally add a benzapiedene (or equivalent) to the cocktail, specifically to prevent the sensation of the OBE. I have to wonder historically why anesthesiologists began doing this. Did people awake from surgery claiming to have experienced frightful OBEs, or worse ?

If you have ever had an experience with these types of PEAs or tryptamines, then you know very well how powerful their effect can be. I personally have(only twice), and I have never experienced anything naturally that is even close. This should not in any way be taken as a recommendation to do so, as the experience can cause permanent neurosis or psychosis to some people.

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10-12-2004, 03:32 PM	#11
fortytwo Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: gone Posts: 210	I died once...The only thing I remember could be described as a fuzzy sense of self, & feeling confronted with my own ego, it was unpleasant. I attribute that experience to possible oxygen deprivation, or a malfunction in the brain. So, I can see where that could possibly be an explanation for OBEs.

10-12-2004, 07:38 PM	#16
breezanne Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: US Posts: 5,335	Mind is not subject to material law, so whatever the universe is composed of, it is not purely material, and not purely subject to material law. Volition is a property of mind and mind alone. Neuroscience can and does demonstrate the connections between mental processes and physiological processes. It has nothing to say about the essential nature of reality, whether 'tis mind or matter, spirit or body. We are certain that mind creates convincing illusions of matter (we dream); we can merely suppose that matter somehow creates the first order (self-evident) phenomena of mind. Suppose all you like, but do not delude yourself that your beliefs have ever been proven correct.

10-13-2004, 09:33 AM	#20
Fortuna Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 293	Epictitus, Thank you, and I think that you also bring up a very important aspect to this discussion. That is, that people WANT to believe that there is more than physical existence. You see, I want to believe it too. But, I dont think that this provides any evidence of it, consideration of the facts presented seem to rule it out. The weight of the evidence that 2 known chemicals, ketamine and MMDA (both amines) can consistently reproduce the OBE in almost any individual is evidentiary but not conclusive. The article points out that anesthesiologists intentionally add a benzapiedene (or equivalent) to the cocktail, specifically to prevent the sensation of the OBE. I have to wonder historically why anesthesiologists began doing this. Did people awake from surgery claiming to have experienced frightful OBEs, or worse ? If you have ever had an experience with these types of PEAs or tryptamines, then you know very well how powerful their effect can be. I personally have(only twice), and I have never experienced anything naturally that is even close. This should not in any way be taken as a recommendation to do so, as the experience can cause permanent neurosis or psychosis to some people.

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