Gamera

If the resurrection was undeniable, there would be no need for faith, and the core of Christianity would become meaningless. Under this scenario, rational people would believe and only the irrational would not, so beleivers could boast (something Paul specifically says we cannot do, having been saved not by any merit, but by grace).

The fact is we do not have witnesses, we do not have testimony, we have a text. That's it. A text is a story, a message. Christianity is based on the premise that if you accept the message, your alienation from God and from the loving person God intended you to be will end. That's it. No apodictic proof, no historical evidence, no nothing. Just the confrontation with the gospel message.

Paul is explicit about this:

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith

Doug Shaver

Do you think it rational to believe that the earth orbits the sun, rather than vice versa? If you do, do you boast about it?

pharoah

Imagine this scene. The post-res Jesus appears to these two men and starting from Moses, he explains clearly and eloquently how the OT proved he was the Son of God, the Messiah. This was extremely valuable testimony that could have answered a lot of questions.

But neither of those two men thought to preserve the words of Jesus. It never occurred to either of these two men to pass on what had to be the greatest sermon that Jesus ever preached.

It's the same thing with the 500 brethren. Not one of them wrote anything indicating that Jesus, the Son of God, appeared to them in person after his resurrection.

If anybody wrote anything, God has seen fit to allow it to remain lost or destroyed. Perhaps He just wants us to have faith.

mithy73

Given that the account of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus is clearly a mystical vision rather than a physical appearance (Acts 9:3-7), I would not count Paul as a primary witness of a physical Resurrection. Mystical visions may be very real to those who experience them, but I'd hardly credit them as hard evidence.

As such, I'm pretty much with Peter Kirby on this one - that the apostles had some kind of mystical experience that was interpreted as feeling the presence of Jesus.

I also agree that it's not supported in the synoptic Gospels - indeed, if one goes back to Mark (minus Mk 16:9-20, which as far as I know is generally accepted to be a later interpolation), I think it's arguably possible to interpret Mk 16:1-8 as being symbolic of a mystical ascension rather than a physical Resurrection (even if one skips past the question of how Mark knew about the tomb visit if the three women told no-one). Admittedly I'm a rank amateur, so I'm fully prepared to see this idea shot down in flames.

Gamera

It is rational to believe that the earth orbits the sun, and if somebody doesn't, that tells me I'm more rational than they.

Now, back to the issue of salvation, are you saying salvation is like science, and those who don't accept God's gift don't deserve it, while those that do do deserve it? Because the NT teaches that NOBODY deserves grace, and that it is a gift, not earned by your superior qualities.

Doug Shaver

OK. Now, will you answer the second part of my question? Do you boast about believing that the earth orbits the sun?

I never left it. Allow me to remind you of the context of my question.

Didymus

In what? A copy (of a copy etc.) of an ancient report based on hearsay from anonymous sources?

Didymus

Hallandale

Can we believe everything that the Apostle Paul wrote?

Examine what Paul says concerning his own character.
2Corinthians 12:16 NASB
""But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit. ""

Colossians 1:23 NASB
""if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.""
Was the Gospel " proclaimed in all creation under heaven"" in Paul's day? Has it even been "proclaimed in all creation under heaven"" in the present day?
Certainly Paul had a habit of exaggerating.

1Corinthians 9:20-23 NASB
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

23I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Can you possibly trust the honesty of a man who wants to be all things to all men? Can you trust an opportunist like the Apostle Paul?

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

dongiovanni1976x

My religiously inclined cousin. Dr. Elizabeth Simmons (I don't know her married name) She is a professor at http://www.olhcc.edu/

I was just struck by the word, "undeniable" and wanted to see this forum's reactions, comments and opinions.

His Noodly Appendage

Dude. Terrible nick to use on a debate board.

Don Giovanni better arguments than that?