outhouse

maybe you forget


Saducees and romans ran Herods temple.


Not the normal hard working jew's, the saducees were not your typical jewish sect by any means.


you post info going back to a mythical moshe who never existed, now your pulling cultural tax information from a fictional myth





one thing is certain here and its not your mandatory tax. And what is certain is that people today are still debating this.

Godfrey

I hereby offer to donate a keyboard with a working caps lock button. Where shall I send it?

Sheshbazzar

They may have ran it, but for the common devout practicing Jew, the call to pay Temple Tax was a respected mitzvah
Point?

I agree that Moshe was mythical and never existed. So what?

The average Jew following the traditions and rules of 1st century Judaism, believed that the Exodus did happen, that YHWH did exist, and that their religious commandments had came directly from YHWH via his servant Moshe. And their daily actions and conduct was predicated upon those beliefs. (still are)

I agree that the NT is a myth, but then -I- wasn't the one who began quoting it here to prop up a theory about Roman taxes.

Anyone that seriously examines Matthew 17:24-27, even though the situation is mythical, can determine that it has really nothing to do with Roman taxation, and is no valid prop for your Roman taxation rant. Which was your initial error of misapplication.

There is no doubt that The Second Temple operated in the 1st century, and that it had been in operation since 515 BCE in some fashion or the other.
Even when it was taken over by the excesses of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and pigs were sacrificed to the statue of Zeus, it remained the focus of the Jews religion, and a fervent desire to restore the mandated plan and form of worship and daily operation that was long before laid out within the Torah.

At every instance where those Jews loyal to The Laws and Temple could gain or regain control, the Torah's 613 commandments were applied and were followed as rigorously as could be achieved.
Including the annual collection of the one-half shekel Temple Tax from every man aged 'twenty years old and above' Exodus 30:14
The understanding of The -practicing- and -only- authoritative Temple Priesthood of this verse being, that every Jewish man on reaching 20 years of age became obligated by LAW to pay the half-shekel Temple Tax, and those 'above' 20 years of age were also to pay this half-shekel Temple Tax from year to year.
Otherwise there would have been only ONE single collection taken up, and the practice could not have endured as 'memorial unto the children of Israel' Ex 30:16 A 'Memorial' signifying a continuing 'reminding' practice.
Similar wording occurs in Exodus 38:26
"A bekah for every man, [that is], half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty [men]."
If there had been an understanding by the -practicing-Temple authorities or the latter Sanhedrin of Israel, that this single collection under Moses was the end of the obligation, there would have been no further collection of the half-shekel Temple Tax from anyone. It would have all been over and done with, with that one time collection.

It is however evident that the half-shekel Temple Tax collection was continued, and was paid by all who were obedient to THE LAW, right up until the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE.

And during this 585 year time period, Jews who were zealous for the observance of THE LAW, would certainly have interpreted the THE LAW "from twenty years old and ABOVE, shall give an offering unto YHWH." as an continuing obligation BY LAW upon every male Jew to begin the paying the half-shekel Temple Tax at the age of twenty, and 'ABOVE' signifying a continuing obligation of payment as a reminding 'memorial' act each and every year thereafter.

Cheapskates, and scofflaws, and those stiff-knecked and rebellious 'Jews' that held no respect for The Law of their Elohim, nor for his Temple, nor for the best interest of their Nation, debated and dodged their obligations back then, and most certainly reaped the results of their trespasses.
That this is still being debated amongst them is only the evidence that they still have not learned their lesson.

No. The Temple Tax is -no longer- mandatory.
What Israel once had was taken away from them, even as it was stated that it would be.
No longer are they even permitted to pray upon that Holy Mount, which has been taken from them, and now rings with the strange prayers and the songs of the strangers that hate them.

And no matter how much Jews may pray, or how carefully they follow all the inane rituals and vain traditions of men which they have created, Nothing will change. They shall never again possess that Holy Mount until the day that they change.
The good part is, that it is also predicted in the Tanaka that in due time they will change, And that change will transform the entire world with them.

outhouse

LOl I still cant find the link that shut me down on the voluntary temple tax


but here is another

http://julianspriggs.com/taxation.aspx

Nehemiah introduced an annual one-third shekel tax for running and maintenance of the temple (Neh 10:32f). This was later increased to a half shekel, which was worth about two denarius, the equivalent of two day’s wages. All Jewish males, except the priests, were liable to pay this tax, but it was mostly only the Pharisees who did so.

stephan huller

This is so stupid. If you want to know whether the half-shekel tax was voluntary why not do the unthinkable and ask a Jew? Hitler didn't win the war. There still are plenty of Jews in the world. Why not ask a rabbi if (a) the plain meaning of the text (b) a Google search of books (rather than web pages) and (c) my expert testimony isn't enough for you?

This is silly. If you wanted to know what chocolate tasted like you'd buy a candy bar. Why go through all this confusion? If you were really ambitious you could do what I do and find a list of scholars of Judaism and mass email everyone on the list and get an answer. Even if only 5% respond you'd still find out everyone will tell you that the half shekel is obligatory. There were groups that decided differently of course. But this has been the interpretation for as long as anyone can remember.

Why argue with idiots at this forum (including me). Just ask an authority if this means so much to you.

outhouse

I found part of my old thread

here fallingblood is quoting Sanders on the voluntary temple tax

Regarding Temple Tax: Again from E.P. Sanders, "..in payment of the half-shekel tax levied on all Jews. The word 'levied' itself requires interpretation, for payment of the tax was voluntary, being enforced only by moral suasion."

Sanders says on page 256:
"He [Jesus] paid the Temple tax, even if he was a little reluctant to do so (Matt. 17.24-7)." If you read these verses, you will see that Jesus was in Capernaum. So one did not have to pay Temple taxes at Passover (and as Sanders states, they were voluntary anyway).

outhouse

As I stated, it matter's not to me. My view of jesus as sort of a hybrid zealot stands, backed by scripture

stephan huller

Who the fuck is E.P. Sanders? Ask a Jew you <EDIT>. This is what Jews live for - literally.

stephan huller

I don't know what to say about this. http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-s.../terumah.html#. This isn't plain enough?

outhouse

Both quotes come from:
McEleney, Neil J. 1976. "Mt 17:24-27 - who paid the temple tax : a lesson in avoidance of scandal." Catholic Biblical Quarterly 38, no. 2: 181

"There is at least one rabbinic text (Mek. Exod 19:1) that shows that not all Jews had paid the Temple Tax." That is quite straightforward.

"More* over, the assumption that even among the circumcised all regarded the Temple Tax as an obligation incumbent on them or their sect is not based on fact." So the idea that all Jews paid Temple tax is not based on fact.

"The Samaritans, for example, were circumcised, but had separated themselves from the cult of the Jerusalem Temple." This continues from the previous statement. It suggests Samaritans, who were Jews as well, or identified themselves as such, didn't pay Temple Taxes.

These quotes come from here:
Mandell, S. 1984. "Who Paid the Temple Tax When the Jews Were under Roman Rule?." Harvard Theological Review 77, no. 2: 223-232
The basic argument was that not all Jews paid the Temple tax. If one did not see an obligation in doing it, they didn't have to. As in, it was voluntary. It also discusses how there is no historical evidence that all Jews paid the Temple tax.