Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 09-04-2011, 01:03 PM

The Anti-Gospel of Yeshu the Magician

It quotes from a number of texts, and then provides some commentary. One such quote and commentary from the end as follows ....

Quote:

And there were gathered together all the bishops and the Great Ancient of the Christians. They came to Simon Cephas to the Mount of Olives on the day of the great Feast of Willow-twigs [during the Feast of Tabernacles]. When they saw his wisdom, that there was not one in Israel like unto him, they tried to turn him to the religion of the Christians, and they constrained him, saying:

'If you do not profess our religion, we will put you to death, and not leave even one remaining in Israel to go into the sanctuary.'

When the Israelites saw this, they told him, 'Humor them; act according to your wisdom, so that neither sin nor guilt be on you.' So when he perceived the hard fate for Israel, he betook himself to the Christians, and said to them: 'On this condition do I become a convert to your religion: that you put no Jew to death, that you not punish any Jew, or stop them from going in and out of the sanctuary.' The Ancient and the Christians accepted his words and all these conditions. He made a condition with them, that they would build him a lofty tower, he would go into it, would eat no flesh, nor anything except bread and water, letting down a box by a cord for them to supply him with only bread and water, and he would remain in the tower until his death.

All this he did with respect to God, that he might not be stained and sullied by them and that he might not mix with them; but to the Christians he spoke in their sense as though he would mourn for Yeshu and eat no flesh nor anything else but bread and water only. They built him a tower, and he dwelt inside; he did not burden himself with eating, and did not pray to the Cross.

The commentary runs ...

Quote:

This Simon Cephas is definitely a different Simon than the one from the last story. The history of the saints confirms that St. Simon Stylites did live the majority of his life in narrow spaces no larger than 20 meters. He had originally been ejected from the monastery after nearly starving himself and wearing a girdle so tight that he gave himself infected wounds. After this he shut himself up in a hut for 3 years, but crowds of pilgrims went through the desert to seek his advice out on prayer. He spoke mostly against money lending and profanity. After discovering a pillar amongst some ruins, it's said he became determined to spend the rest of his life on it. However, not being tall enough, it was replaced several times, the last one being 15 feet high, at which point pilgrims would climb a ladder up to see him. He would not be the last to take this unique form of hermitage, as many pillar-ascetics came to follow his example.

The "Ancient of the Christians" who threatened to kill everyone might be the Emperor Theodosius or the Pope of Rome. As we've seen, Theodosius was the first Christian Emperor to outlaw paganism and attempted to force all of Rome to convert to the Catholic/Orthodox religion of Constantine. The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia says this about St. Simon Stylites:

Quote:

"Great personages, such as the Emperor Theodosius and the Empress Eudocia manifested the utmost reverence for the saint and listened to his counsels, while the Emperor Leo paid respectful attention to a letter Simeon wrote to him in favour of the Council of Chalcedon. Once when he was ill Theodosius sent three bishops to beg him to descend and allow himself to be attended by physicians, but the sick man preferred to leave his cure in the hands of God, and before long he recovered. After spending thirty-six years on his pillar, Simeon died on Friday, 2 Sept., 459 (Lietzmann, p. 235).

So it would appear another example of how this text has had various layers of editing happening. Thanks for the thread stephan.

I guess that the OP relies on the possibility that Celsus was referring to an earlier Hebrew source, and not a Greek source. If Justin and Celsus and Irenaeus were not known for their command of Hebrew, how would the OP argue that these Greek authors became aware of a Hebrew source of comments about the Toldoth Yeshu, when it is more likely that these authors would only have read greek?

Toto · 09-04-2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...
I guess that the OP relies on the possibility that Celsus was referring to an earlier Hebrew source, and not a Greek source. If Justin and Celsus and Irenaeus were not known for their command of Hebrew, how would the OP argue that these Greek authors became aware of a Hebrew source of comments about the Toldoth Yeshu, when it is more likely that these authors would only have read greek?

Justus, Celsus, and Ireneaus did not know anything about the Toldoth Yeshu. They are listed as showing some evidence of the Jewish anti-Christian comments that are reflected in the later Toldoth Yeshu.

mountainman · 09-04-2011, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...
I guess that the OP relies on the possibility that Celsus was referring to an earlier Hebrew source, and not a Greek source. If Justin and Celsus and Irenaeus were not known for their command of Hebrew, how would the OP argue that these Greek authors became aware of a Hebrew source of comments about the Toldoth Yeshu, when it is more likely that these authors would only have read greek?

Justus, Celsus, and Ireneaus did not know anything about the Toldoth Yeshu.

The name of the text translates as The History of Jesus,[1] Generations of Jesus,[2] or The Life of Jesus[3]. If there was a source known to Celsus for example, it might have been known by some other name. Do we know the language of Celsus's source for his mention of Pandera?

Quote:

They are listed as showing some evidence of the Jewish anti-Christian comments that are reflected in the later Toldoth Yeshu.

Quite aside from the socio-political comments, some are also listed as sources for evidence of "purported historical events", such as the claim central to the OP that ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan

The Toledoth Yeshu and Celsus identify Jesus's father as Pandera.

The text does have an interesting history. Thanks again for the OP - hope you're enjoying your holiday stephan.

PS: There is a certainly a Jesus illicited in the later Toldoth Yeshu, and possibly historical for those with an inclination to pursue such an hypothesis, but "Supernatural" seems an unusual adjective in this case. "Bastardized" seems more appropriate. The heretics are alive in this midrash and cobbled text.

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