sschlichter

I agree with you but the analogy ends there. Your children will grow up and be your equal. you are not going to grow up in that sense in relationship to God. I.e. You were designed to be dependent on God for God. You are not going to grow out of it.

~Steve

storytime

According to the bible, "sin" is transgression of the law. And the law applied to Israelites only. No other people were subject to the law of the Hebrew God, probably because other people held their own laws in their own nations and gods.

Before law for Israelites, it was said that every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Sorta like the settlers who first came to America. Everyone ruled their own families, settlements, territories. Then came the states and lawful government.

Who then is a sinner? Only Israelites can be caterogized in that governing body of Israel. When they transgressed the law of Moses, then were deemed sinners. Judgment in punishments according to the transgression was given, and in recognizing of the larger and lesser crimes. "Picking up sticks" on the Sabbath carried the death penalty by stoning. I think there must have been more to this picking up of sticks that merely cleaning out a field or township area. Maybe it had something to do with magic. I'm guessing that Moses knew how to turn sticks into snakes from his learning magic in Egypt. So practicing magic on the Sabbath may be the offense connected with sticks. What do you think?

HaRaAYaH

Not necessarily true at all. You may never get to be God (that might be fun for a few minutes). The Jewish calendar has many different beginnings. The first holiday in the Calendar is Passover. Since none of you has attended a traditional Seder, I will take this opportunity to inform you that it's all about God. In a traditional Hagaddah, Moses gets nary a mention. God is the one who redeemed the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. Now fast forward to the end of the Jewish Holiday cycle to a little known (outside of Judasim) holiday called Purim. On Purim, we read the book of Esther. Read the book from cover to cover and what you find is God is absent from the text. As we progress through the calendar of our lives, we are to depend on God less and less, it's up to us to complete the work or creation as we are partners with God in the enterprise. Remember if there is a relationship between God and man it's two way. As Herschel points out in his book God in Search of Man, religion may not be man's theology but God's Anthropology.

sschlichter

I think you are right on in considering what the law meant to those recieving them and extrapolating what is important to God from that. Sticks are not the issue. I also agree with you on the aspect of the law that is given for the governance of a people. Here things like the death penalty should be given their context.

However, sin is also treated (Old and New Testament) as a condition of the heart. God intended to bless other nations through the Jews and he showed numerous times the concern he had beyond the Jews (Jonah, for example). Sin is universal and according to Romans 1 - 3 even those without the written law have an innate sense of God's law - and are therefore without excuse in breaking it (as all have done).

~Steve

sschlichter

I do not mean to say that you do not grow but that we never will (or should desire to) become independent of God. I see that as an aspect of our sin. Even if you take Adam adn Eve as allegorical, it leaves us with the impression that the temptation presented was to be 'like God' - self-reliant and declaring for myself what is right and wrong. However, I see your point. We always need to continue to grow. I do see Esther a little differently though. I see Esther presented as evidence of God's soveringty in the affairs of men. (even unbeknowst to them)

BTW, I attend a Seder dinner every year. I love it - I look forward to it all year.

~Steve

Malachi151

This thread still doesn't address the fact that according to the Bible no one goes to heaven (except Jesus and a few other select folks).

aa5874

WHAT!

A DEAD MAN CANNOT SEE OR GUESS. YOU CAN PUT THAT ON THE BANK.

You'll see!

sschlichter

actually, if you are correct then I will probably never know it.

aa5874

How many people will have to die before you know the truth?

When a person dies, their brains are dead. I guess you know what that means!

spamandham

So you're his pet then, rather than his child. I agree that the "child" analogy only goes so far.