Mageth

Forgive them or not, I do not think anyone has the moral right to inflict inhumane suffering on them because of their crimes against humanity. Punishment, yes, if it's incarceration or death/annihilation, humanely done (as was done to the Nazi war criminals, who were either executed or imprisoned); suffering, no. No burning, no whipping, and so on.

Half-Life

Also sugarhitman read this passage too:

Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus (that is, the Son of Timaeus), was sitting by the roadside begging. 47When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

48Many rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!"

49Jesus stopped and said, "Call him." So they called to the blind man, "Cheer up! On your feet! He's calling you." 50Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus.

51"What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.
The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."

52"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.



Such a shame. God violated another person's free will by proving himself here.

Why does he keep violating people's free wills?

crispy

So hitler converted more jews than anyone has ever done? Great!

Half-Life

Yep, we should all praise hitler for making so many Christians.

Remember that one woman who drowned her new babies in the bathtub because she wanted them to go to right to Heaven rather than grow up, have a chance to reject the gospel and go to hell.

I wonder if sugarhitman would applaud this woman or call her very delusional.

Mageth

Well, he said, above, "We dont do it because God will surely be displeased...." So the woman shouldn't have done it because God will surely be displeased. However, the woman was delusioned, apparently believing God would be pleased. But God won't be pleased. So will he punish her because he's not pleased, even though she believed she was pleasing him?

The same applies to all other acts committed in the name of pleasing God or not committed due to fear of displeasing God. They depend on the person's perception of what pleases and displeases God...and heaven knows that's all over the board.

Which highlights a problem with acting according to what you believe will please or displease God. You're probably fucked. Matter of fact, you are fucked. No one can possibly know what all pleases or displeases God all the time.

Unless God gives you a break. "You acted to your best ability, even though you displeased me more often than not. You know, you really shouldn't have drowned those kids...contrary to your beliefs at the time, that was not my idea."

But then, well, where does the break-giving stop, if God is to be just and fair? I'm acting to the best of my ability, trying to live a good life. I just happen to lack belief in god(s), so I don't look to them for any direction, or try to please them or avoid displeasing them. Yet I do a decent job of it, I think. In fact, I behave pretty much like I did back when I was a Christian. Better in some ways. (I, for sure, would not drown kids under the delusion that I'm sending them directly to God!) Only real difference is that I don't happen to believe in the Christian notion of God and Jesus and all that goes with it.

So why punish me? I'm doing the best I can with the information I have...just like your run-of-the-mill Christian, who no doubt doesn't always please God.

Half-Life

Good points but sugarhitman still hasn't responded to my 2 posts on the whole free will thing.

I used to defend the whole "free will" argument as well. Now, I see what a sham it truly is.

I used to be one of the ones who said "God is not a magic genie that can just prove himself to you at random."

Yet, God had no problem being a magic genie and proving himself with miracles in the 1st century.

Why the big change of heart?

arnoldo

No change at all, after the day of pentecost in the first century the church has been one continuous miracle and in the year 1948 the State of Israel was miraculously formed and is in existence this very moment.

Half-Life

What continuous miracle?

So God decided to allow the Jews to be persecuted for so long and used as slaves and burned alive in the Holocaust and THEN he finally decides to give them a nation in 1948? Then he leaves them alone and still to this day nothing else with the nation. :huh:

Weren't all Jews supposed to be swept up by "God's mighty hand?" How come my Jewish friend lives 3 blocks from me? Shouldn't he be in Israel?

And why is God performing miracles for the churches but refuses to give starving children food when he created humans from dirt and spoke the universe into existence from absolutle nothingness?

Doug Shaver

Your dogma says so. The facts say otherwise.

sugarhitman

More confusion. The miracles Jesus performed...and yet many still did not believe....the miracles in the desert, the bright cloud...and yet there were many who still did not believe (that is to have faith, the belief in God never saved anyone...only faith.) Paul still had a choice....to believe or disbelieve...he chose the former.