Toto

Doesn't it say somewhere that God "hardened" Pharoah's heart? That would seem to interfere with his free will.

Anat

Definitely. Appologetics - Pharoah chose to say 'no' and God just made sure it remains a 'no' long enough for all the dramatic effects (plagues, etc) which the Egyptians had already 'earned' in the previous 400 years. Or something.

John Kesler

With regard to the Egyptian enslavement, God did know it--"for certain":

Secondly, maybe you can explain why Yahweh sent a flood to kill all mankind because, "every inclination of the thoughts of [humans'] hearts was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5), yet after the flood, Yahweh promised not to ever again "curse the ground" since, he realized, "the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth" (Genesis 8:21). Didn't a deity who could predict the future to Abraham years in advance know that killing everyone in a flood wouldn't change anything?

Bobinius

You are making God non-omniscient. In the moment he created the world he did not know what he was going to create. Spectacular defense.

So, God can know something only after it happened? Like us? I thought he was the all-knowing, perfect being.

Btw, if God knows the future, the universe is deterministic.

Mageth

If the future is "going to happen" (a particular future, that is), then how is the universe not deterministic? If a present state of the universe A is necessarily followed by a next state of the universe B (for whatever reason), then how is the universe not deterministic?

I thought the assumption was that he created it (the universe). If so, had the future of the universe "already happened" before he created the universe?

rlogan

Pretty simple game theory approach to why God is "all knowing" and "all powerful".

Assume:

- competition among religions for adherents

- adherents value power and knowledge in gods

- traits cannot be confirmed because god does not exist in the first place


What is the equilibrium level of knowledge in gods? Simple: Corner solution. Knowledge and power are total. Anything less and your god can be made lesser than someone else's god. Therefore he is not god after all, and we have a decisive contradiction.


Now, insofar as making sense out of the world, omniscience and omnipotence have nearly zero explanatory power. Contradictions abound, especially when you begin to introduce other traits like justice and compassion.


But a religious adherent cannot admit to a sub-optimal god. It is tantamount to treason. So we place value on convoluted apologetics for god rather than admitting it's a stupid proposition to begin with.

steamer

In the beginning man created the god idea because he couldn't think of any other answer to how the heavens and the earth got there. We have very good ideas now about how planets form and I'm sure we'll have even better ideas about universe formation in the future.

Toto

I like it. :thumbs: I think you should publish it, since both religion and game theory seem to be hot right now. It probably needs to be expanded into other game theoretic aspects of religion.

rlogan

Aw shucks, Toto. A compliment from the vastity squad.

You'd be right about expanding it into other areas.

There are some other aspects that I've doodled with: mainly risk aversion, but not exactly as in pascal's wager.


Need a co-author, or someone to buck up all of this damned birch I've been dragging home.

Jaelum

I've heard a Christian posit what is basically the pan-universe theory to refute determinism: God not only knows the future, he knows all possible futures; the infinity of possibilities of every concievable choice every human makes every moment of existence.

/shrug