Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pappy Jack · 11-22-2007, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

any comments about the big bang theory in the Quran?

For me, Salam, you would have to be really wanting to try very hard indeed to make the verses you have quoted fit this summary from Wiki:

Quote:

The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models, the universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density, huge temperatures and pressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10−35 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the universe grew exponentially.[23] After inflation stopped, the universe consisted of a quark-gluon plasma, as well as all other elementary particles.[24] Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle-antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions. At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe.[25]

From here.

I see no reason at all why you should regard the verses as anything other than a poetic attempt to describe a creation that would have been beyond the imaginings of anyone then alive.

Vilehand · 11-22-2007, 06:14 AM

Why do we even consider such absurdity? :huh: Those who have been around here long enough know of the attempts of theists to prove the validity of their beliefs by quoting their holy books and see it as a waste of time. Whether the religion be Muslim, Christian, or Zoroastianism, they prove nothing and offer nothing to humanity except slavery of the mind.

I would note that it is interesting that we are seeing a more militant and proseltyzing Islam in the last few years. Usually these boards were filled with ranting Christians trying to make us see the error of our ways. Now they are becoming rife with ranting Moslems. Unfortunately for them, they are merely stomping over the old ground stomped on by theists for centuries. For these unenlightened people, they will find there is a Western tradition of dealing with radical irrational religious beliefs. We are protected by laws of men, not laws of myth, and we will not simply tolerate irrationality interfering with our right to laugh at their superstitious belief.

Obd · 11-22-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

Quote:

Where?

verse 20:30

Quote:

To what level of detail?

to a level which they can comprehend 1400 years ago.

The problem with such 'predictions' is that they're very vague and broad and open to alot of interpretation so that with the right amount of imagination you can see this as a very primitive description of the popular notion of the big bang. The same however, goes for say the 'predictions' of Nostradamus or astrology.
Modern day physics doesn't necessarily see the big bang as the ultimate beginning (or 'creation') either. Read Roger Penrose's The road to reality for a good overview of the current state of theoretical physics.

Lucretius · 11-22-2007, 06:33 AM

It has been mentioned that the "Big Bang " is mentioned here verse 20:30

Quote:

to a level which they can comprehend 1400 years ago.

And here by Pappy Jack

Quote:

I see no reason at all why you should regard the verses as anything other than a poetic attempt to describe a creation that would have been beyond the imaginings of anyone then alive

However there is a much better (even if not completley scientifically correct in modern terms ) version of "creation" here ,which predates Islam by at least 500 hundred years and shows a rather more sophisticated understanding of creation .

Quote:

I will now set out in order the stages by which the initial concentration of matter laid the foundations of earth and sky ,of the ocean depths and the orbits of the Sun and Moon .Certainly the atoms did not post themselves purposefully in due order by an act of intelligence ,nor did they stipulate what movements each should perform .But multitudinous atoms,swept along in multitudinous courses through infinite time by mutual clashes and their own weight ,have come together in every possible way and realized everything that could be formed by their combinations. So it comes about that a voyage of immense duration ,in which they have experienced every variety of movement and conjunction ,has at length brought together those whose sudden encounter normally forms the starting point of substantive fabrics -earth and seas and sky and the races of living creatures .

Lucretius De Rerum Natura Book V 416-508

In comparison the statement from the Sura is simplistic in the extreme even though it comes from a later date.

Toto · 11-22-2007, 12:08 PM

I recently heard a lecture by Taner Edis, a Turkish-American physicist, on his new book, An Illusion of Harmony: Science and Religion in Islam (or via: amazon.co.uk)

There is a Salon Premium article here on the book.

It is heartening that people see Islam as compatible with science, as opposed to some Christian fundamentalists who reject science. But the idea that all science is contained in the Qur'an is based on illusion, and does not free the mind to do good science.

Salam · 11-22-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I recently heard a lecture by Taner Edis, a Turkish-American physicist, on his new book, An Illusion of Harmony: Science and Religion in Islam (or via: amazon.co.uk)

There is a Salon Premium article here on the book.

Interesting.

Quote:

But the idea that all science is contained in the Qur'an is based on illusion, and does not free the mind to do good science.

I don't think any group has this idea.

Salam · 11-22-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

However there is a much better (even if not completley scientifically correct in modern terms ) version of "creation" here ,which predates Islam by at least 500 hundred years and shows a rather more sophisticated understanding of creation .

Quote:

I will now set out in order the stages by which the initial concentration of matter laid the foundations of earth and sky ,of the ocean depths and the orbits of the Sun and Moon .Certainly the atoms did not post themselves purposefully in due order by an act of intelligence ,nor did they stipulate what movements each should perform .But multitudinous atoms,swept along in multitudinous courses through infinite time by mutual clashes and their own weight ,have come together in every possible way and realized everything that could be formed by their combinations. So it comes about that a voyage of immense duration ,in which they have experienced every variety of movement and conjunction ,has at length brought together those whose sudden encounter normally forms the starting point of substantive fabrics -earth and seas and sky and the races of living creatures .

Lucretius De Rerum Natura Book V 416-508

In comparison the statement from the Sura is simplistic in the extreme even though it comes from a later date.

Correct. But don't you think that the people (Arabs) whom the prophet (who's illiterate) were set to are more backward in the sense of science and philosophy than the Romans?

Lucretius · 11-24-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

Quote:

However there is a much better (even if not completley scientifically correct in modern terms ) version of "creation" here ,which predates Islam by at least 500 hundred years and shows a rather more sophisticated understanding of creation .

In comparison the statement from the Sura is simplistic in the extreme even though it comes from a later date.

Correct. But don't you think that the people (Arabs) whom the prophet (who's illiterate) were set to are more backward in the sense of science and philosophy than the Romans?

But the problem then is IF the Koran is truly the inspired word of Allah (God) then why did He not ensure that his followers were sufficiently knowledgable to even understand 500 to 800 year old explanations of the Universe (however simplisitic they are in modern terms)?
The knowledge was there, so in effect why didn't Allah/God ensure that the people he had chosen to spread his message knew it ?

Strange that the closest we have to an ancient understanding of the real nature Cosmos comes from a purely materialistic philosophy and not from a divinely inspired work.(Of course I am ignoring the dedication to the godess Venus in the opening lines of DRN

)

Salam · 11-25-2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

But the problem then is IF the Koran is truly the inspired word of Allah (God) then why did He not ensure that his followers were sufficiently knowledgable to even understand 500 to 800 year old explanations of the Universe (however simplisitic they are in modern terms)?
The knowledge was there, so in effect why didn't Allah/God ensure that the people he had chosen to spread his message knew it ?

First of all, we need to understand the nature of the Quran in order to understand why. The Quran was revealed to people who were (and still are) very proud of their poetic abilities (not scientific nor their philosophy). So, in order to impress them, God in the Quran demonstrate a very high quality of poetry. Which consists of simple, short and correct verses. We can't discuss the quality of the literature here since most people here have a limited knowledge about the Arabic language.

Quote:

Strange that the closest we have to an ancient understanding of the real nature Cosmos comes from a purely materialistic philosophy and not from a divinely inspired work.(Of course I am ignoring the dedication to the godess Venus in the opening lines of DRN )

Correct. But this ancient understanding you have is "wrong" in modern terms, and you cannot disagree that all this universe was at one time "one" unit.

Osbert · 11-25-2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

First of all, we need to understand the nature of the Quran in order to understand why. The Quran was revealed to people who were (and still are) very proud of their poetic abilities (not scientific nor their philosophy). So, in order to impress them, God in the Quran demonstrate a very high quality of poetry. Which consists of simple, short and correct verses. We can't discuss the quality of the literature here since most people here have a limited knowledge about the Arabic language.

Welcome to the Forum, Salam, I hope you have many meaningful debates.

Does the Quran have a very "high quality of poetry" ?

Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakarīya Rāzi, born 865 CE died 925 CE (al-Razi) commented on the Quran and said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ...
By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Razi

Have you read much poetry?

11-22-2007, 06:14 AM	#12
Vilehand New Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1	Sigh Why do we even consider such absurdity? :huh: Those who have been around here long enough know of the attempts of theists to prove the validity of their beliefs by quoting their holy books and see it as a waste of time. Whether the religion be Muslim, Christian, or Zoroastianism, they prove nothing and offer nothing to humanity except slavery of the mind. I would note that it is interesting that we are seeing a more militant and proseltyzing Islam in the last few years. Usually these boards were filled with ranting Christians trying to make us see the error of our ways. Now they are becoming rife with ranting Moslems. Unfortunately for them, they are merely stomping over the old ground stomped on by theists for centuries. For these unenlightened people, they will find there is a Western tradition of dealing with radical irrational religious beliefs. We are protected by laws of men, not laws of myth, and we will not simply tolerate irrationality interfering with our right to laugh at their superstitious belief.

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11-22-2007, 12:08 PM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I recently heard a lecture by Taner Edis, a Turkish-American physicist, on his new book, An Illusion of Harmony: Science and Religion in Islam (or via: amazon.co.uk) There is a Salon Premium article here on the book. It is heartening that people see Islam as compatible with science, as opposed to some Christian fundamentalists who reject science. But the idea that all science is contained in the Qur'an is based on illusion, and does not free the mind to do good science.

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