Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JohnG · 02-05-2008, 12:32 AM

Hello, I am relatively new to this forum, but have a keen interest in history and anthropology. I also find the study of early cultures very fascinating.

I have been studying Judaism and Christianity, as well as Greek Philosophy, Roman culture, Mesopotamian culture and also the political landscape of those times.

Although it is clear that there was a higher level of superstition in earlier times, it is also clear that these cultures were quite intelligent when looking at their complex political and social systems. The innovations were obviously the result of a developed knowledge of mathematics, geometry, and shared information.

Anyway, I was doing some research lately re: early Christianity and while I was reading some translations of Tertullian, It occurred to me that the use of hallucinaogenic drugs may have been involved with early Christianity in particular. When it occurred to me, I was surprised I hadn't thought of it before. It was when he was writing about how impressed he was by the "bravery" of the Christians as they were being slaughtered in the arena.

From what I read, it sounded as if they just stood there as they were being ripped apart. From a non-theist point of view, that sounds like heavy sedation to me.

Other things started to make some sense. The visions, the apocolyptic cult, the anti-establishment tendencies, alcoholic consumption, epiphany...that's just off the top of my head.

I did a quick search online and quickly found I am not the first one to consider this.

I don't mean it as an insult to Christians to discuss this (I know there are many on this forum), it is a social stigma to modern society, but as in other cultures it may have been very normal to use these types of drugs to induce "visions of god" or other epiphanic feelings.

I did a quick search here to see if there was another thread, but couldn't find one, sorry if I missed it.

Any thoughts on this?

Headache · 02-05-2008, 08:33 AM

I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if one or more of the good old "prophets" were high as a kite. Lebanese hashish has always been a quality product.

Welcome to IIDB, btw! :wave:

Flaming Moe · 02-05-2008, 10:54 AM

Hi, I know John Allegro wrote about this so you should search his name online. He was one of the original team that worked on the dead sea scrolls.Another respected researcher who wrote about this was R. Gordon Wasson whose book 'Persephone's Quest (or via: amazon.co.uk)' asked whether ancient Greeks used some sort of Ergot as part of the initiation ceremony in the Eleusinian Mysteries.
As you mention, there are many scholars speculating on this subject and it is a very interesting subject.

chrisengland · 02-05-2008, 11:51 AM

I remember hearing once that a women who was spose to be able to talk to the Gods use to go to a lake and talk to the Greek(I think) Gods.
Anyway apparently there was something in the lake wich was making her stoned or something' so when she was talking to the Gods it was propbably that lol

Imnotspecial · 02-05-2008, 12:18 PM

I have thought about this also, but the writings of the NT just don't give me this impression. They are quite coherent and consistant. Even the apocalypse does not have the quality of a raving mad man high on drugs, but it comes close to it.

Toto · 02-05-2008, 12:21 PM

Hi JohnG - welcome to IIDB.

This topic has been discussed in the BCH forum, where this thread probably belongs.

Jesus used Cannabis

John Allegro website.

-Jay- · 02-05-2008, 12:31 PM

Moving to BC&H.

regards,

NinJay
GRD Moderator

Birdland · 02-05-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

I remember hearing once that a women who was spose to be able to talk to the Gods use to go to a lake and talk to the Greek(I think) Gods.
Anyway apparently there was something in the lake wich was making her stoned or something' so when she was talking to the Gods it was propbably that lol

Is this what you're thinking of?

Regarding the original topic, I have to agree with Gunter. Revelation actually does sound a bit like a drug trip to me, but apocalyptic literature was an established genre back then, so suggesting that John was actually using hallucinogens is speculative, though not necessarily wrong.

Solitary Man · 02-05-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdland

I remember hearing once that a women who was spose to be able to talk to the Gods use to go to a lake and talk to the Greek(I think) Gods.
Anyway apparently there was something in the lake wich was making her stoned or something' so when she was talking to the Gods it was propbably that lol

In particular the oracle at Delphi and other temples were thought to be under the influence of fumes from nearby vents. It's been all but discarded as a serious hypothesis.

Clivedurdle · 02-05-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Whence Aaron is called "Christ," from the "chrism," which is "the unction;"

From Cannabis thread.

So xianity dates back to when Aaron was invented, and what is all this about Jesus being of the house of David? Priests were of the tribe of Levi!

02-05-2008, 12:32 AM	#1
JohnG Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: West Coast, Canada Posts: 333	Possible use of Hallucinogens by early Christians Hello, I am relatively new to this forum, but have a keen interest in history and anthropology. I also find the study of early cultures very fascinating. I have been studying Judaism and Christianity, as well as Greek Philosophy, Roman culture, Mesopotamian culture and also the political landscape of those times. Although it is clear that there was a higher level of superstition in earlier times, it is also clear that these cultures were quite intelligent when looking at their complex political and social systems. The innovations were obviously the result of a developed knowledge of mathematics, geometry, and shared information. Anyway, I was doing some research lately re: early Christianity and while I was reading some translations of Tertullian, It occurred to me that the use of hallucinaogenic drugs may have been involved with early Christianity in particular. When it occurred to me, I was surprised I hadn't thought of it before. It was when he was writing about how impressed he was by the "bravery" of the Christians as they were being slaughtered in the arena. From what I read, it sounded as if they just stood there as they were being ripped apart. From a non-theist point of view, that sounds like heavy sedation to me. Other things started to make some sense. The visions, the apocolyptic cult, the anti-establishment tendencies, alcoholic consumption, epiphany...that's just off the top of my head. I did a quick search online and quickly found I am not the first one to consider this. I don't mean it as an insult to Christians to discuss this (I know there are many on this forum), it is a social stigma to modern society, but as in other cultures it may have been very normal to use these types of drugs to induce "visions of god" or other epiphanic feelings. I did a quick search here to see if there was another thread, but couldn't find one, sorry if I missed it. Any thoughts on this?

02-05-2008, 12:31 PM	#7
-Jay- Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Eastern U.S. Posts: 4,157	Mod Note Moving to BC&H. regards, NinJay GRD Moderator

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02-05-2008, 08:33 AM	#2
Headache Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Everywhere Posts: 2,582	I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if one or more of the good old "prophets" were high as a kite. Lebanese hashish has always been a quality product. Welcome to IIDB, btw! :wave:

02-05-2008, 10:54 AM	#3
Flaming Moe Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ireland Posts: 39	Hi, I know John Allegro wrote about this so you should search his name online. He was one of the original team that worked on the dead sea scrolls.Another respected researcher who wrote about this was R. Gordon Wasson whose book 'Persephone's Quest (or via: amazon.co.uk)' asked whether ancient Greeks used some sort of Ergot as part of the initiation ceremony in the Eleusinian Mysteries. As you mention, there are many scholars speculating on this subject and it is a very interesting subject.

02-05-2008, 11:51 AM	#4
chrisengland Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol' England Posts: 2,678	I remember hearing once that a women who was spose to be able to talk to the Gods use to go to a lake and talk to the Greek(I think) Gods. Anyway apparently there was something in the lake wich was making her stoned or something' so when she was talking to the Gods it was propbably that lol

02-05-2008, 12:18 PM	#5
Imnotspecial Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North of South Posts: 5,389	I have thought about this also, but the writings of the NT just don't give me this impression. They are quite coherent and consistant. Even the apocalypse does not have the quality of a raving mad man high on drugs, but it comes close to it.

02-05-2008, 12:21 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hi JohnG - welcome to IIDB. This topic has been discussed in the BCH forum, where this thread probably belongs. Jesus used Cannabis John Allegro website.

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