Tholzel

Well, I am a great believer in William of Occum too. But the problem with the "prosaic" explanation is that it far too sappy to be true. If Joseph was the simple carpenter father of Jesus, where the hell was he during Jesus' entire life? And how did James get to the Chief Temple Priest?

Real life is always complex. Explanations with the simplicity (and vacuuity) of a nursery tale hardly merit Occum's consideration any more than "explaining" that the simplest explanation for Jesus' corperal disappearance was that he was spirited up to heaven.

vsop44

after selling the myrrh and frankincense on the black market , that the 3 wise men had brought to Jesus shortly after his birth along with gold , he disappeared and became a very rich dead beat dad in the south of France . he buried the gold somewhere near Rennes le Chateau ! Later on Jesus and Mary Magdalena went there to try to recuperate the loot but were unsuccesful ......

Now there is a scenario for a best seller !

Zeichman

*looks through the Bible*

I don't see Josephus in there.

And what's your basis for the idea that the NT has no claim to historicity, yet much later Talmud traditions do?

vsop44

The quote about Jesus in Josephus ' Antiquities book 18 , 63-64 has been proven to be a forgery , an addition to the text , late in the second century AD probably by Irenaeus the master forger of his time .

I would be very skeptic about what I read in the Talmud . The Jews have hardly any physical evidence of two of their most influent kings , David and his son Solomon, like there is no evidence of the jews exodus from Egypt under the leadership of Moses (read the bible unearthed by Israel Finkelstein ).

Thomas II

...Somehow I don't think that to be the case,but one thing I know and it is that if there was a Jesus, he had a human father. Period.
:wave:

Zeichman

Proven? I'd like to see this "proof." "Arguments against", perhaps, but "proof" is well too strong a word to use in this case. Any evidence that it was Irenaeus, or is this just speculation? A definite majority of scholars accept that Josephus wrote about Jesus, perhaps you should inform them of this proof.

Or Tacitus.

And why are you bringing up things from the Tanach? I've read "The Bible Unearthed" and agree with its conclusions- but what does it have to do with anything? Or the Talmud? That most certainly is not an independent attestation to Jesus' life. Are you under the impression that Josephus is contained in the Talmud or something?

seven8s

Except for the part where Jesus address this issue by stating, ‘Or what man is there among you who when his son asks for a loaf (rising in life, inheritance) will give him a stone (words, a sinking).

And as well, ..............Mt 19:24 “ And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.�

As a friend pointed out to me....................

A camel can’t go through the eye of a needle and the rich man is already in the kingdom of God (life), hence he can’t enter what he never left.

Next, mt 19:25, ‘When the disciples heard it they were exceedingly amazed saying who then can be saved’. I would suggest that Jesus himself was a rich man and that is what amazed the disciples, because if he can’t enter the kingdom of God, who can, if they are the camels (disciples of John).


Also proceeding that verse is Mt. 3:4 when camel is first employed 'And the same John had his raiment of camels hair (hair shirt), and a leather girdle (chastity belt) about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey (neanderthal)�. Obviously John was a man who deprived himself and expected others to do the same as well. Also, John preached in the wilderness and from Strong’s 2048 we get the following for ‘wilderness

solitary, lonely, desolate, uninhabited
a. used of places
1. a desert, wilderness
2. deserted places, lonely regions
3. an uncultivated region fit for pasturage
d. used of persons
1. deserted by others
2. deprived of the aid and protection of others, especially of friends, acquaintances, kindred
3. bereft 1b
d. of a flock deserted by the shepherd 1b
e. of a woman neglected by her husband, from whom the husband withholds himself

Also Mt. 23:24, ‘You blind guides, you strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel�. I would suggest the gnat is the woman, a pest, and the camel is a man, a specific kind of man.

I give the book a thumbs down. And add, no Buddhism here.

Edited seven8s added last sentence

vsop44

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu...hus-jesus.html

Even the church accepts that some of Josephus writings about Jesus were late additions . If Josephus had heard of Jesus , he must have heard of his miracles and certainly of his resurrection; A resurrection with witnesses some probably still alive when Josephus did some of his writing , He did not mention this incredible event ! If Jesus had performed his miracles say, 30 years ago people would forget his walking on water or turning water into wine but would remember him for walking out of his grave and if this happened as it is written in the gospels it would have been picked up by other historian/ journalists of the time .

Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for writing things like :
Jesus had no need to conjuring tricks , he , himself, was the message and the miracle . Those who recorded his life felt the need to embellish it with wonders . They were mistaken .

I am more inclined to believe that .

andrewcriddle

The Extant text of the TF in Josephus does mention the resurrection Many scholars who accept the basic authenticity of the TF regard this clause as an interpolation but that is another matter.

Andrew Criddle

Agemegos

William of Ockham. Latinised 'Occam'. Not 'Occum'.

Sorry, I hate picking nits, but seeing the error repeated got to me.