Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David B · 05-23-2011, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

...It strikes me that Jesus as reported was too much of an asshole to be entirely invented, though that is, as I say, very much more working hypothesis than definitive proof....

Well, HJers are a strange bunch.

I have NEVER in my lifetime heard that such logics.

"Jesus as reported was too much of an asshole to be entirely invented"

From the criterion of embarrassment to the criterion of "too much of an asshole".

Well, Marcion's Phantom was too much of a PHANTOM to be invented.

The existence of other persons of antiquity has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ of the NT.

Jesus Christ of the NT was the Child of a Ghost and was God's OWN Son made of a woman, God Incarnate.

Galatians 1.19 is IRRELEVANT to the nature of Jesus Christ, God's OWN Son, God Incarnate and when "Paul" supposedly met the apostles Peter and James God Incarnate was ALREADY RAISED from the dead.

The NT CANON is NOT about a man.

The NT CANON MUST be compatible with the teachings of the Church.

ALL those who claim Jesus was JUST a man NEED to GO FIND another SOURCE that is credible for their man and FORGET about the NT Canon.

The NT CANON is the WRITTEN EVIDENCE from antiquity for MYTH Jesus.

You won't find the HERESY that Jesus was an ordinary man with a human father in the NT Canon.

My bold.

I don't know about Marcion's Phantom, but I know of no evidence that phantoms exist.

OTOH, there is ample evidence that cult leaders exist, and have existed.

So phantoms and cult leaders don't really have that much in common, now, do they?

David B

aa5874 · 05-23-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, HJers are a strange bunch.

I have NEVER in my lifetime heard that such logics.

"Jesus as reported was too much of an asshole to be entirely invented"

From the criterion of embarrassment to the criterion of "too much of an asshole".

Well, Marcion's Phantom was too much of a PHANTOM to be invented.

The existence of other persons of antiquity has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ of the NT.

Jesus Christ of the NT was the Child of a Ghost and was God's OWN Son made of a woman, God Incarnate.

Galatians 1.19 is IRRELEVANT to the nature of Jesus Christ, God's OWN Son, God Incarnate and when "Paul" supposedly met the apostles Peter and James God Incarnate was ALREADY RAISED from the dead.

The NT CANON is NOT about a man.

The NT CANON MUST be compatible with the teachings of the Church.

ALL those who claim Jesus was JUST a man NEED to GO FIND another SOURCE that is credible for their man and FORGET about the NT Canon.

The NT CANON is the WRITTEN EVIDENCE from antiquity for MYTH Jesus.

You won't find the HERESY that Jesus was an ordinary man with a human father in the NT Canon.

My bold.

I don't know about Marcion's Phantom, but I know of no evidence that phantoms exist.

OTOH, there is ample evidence that cult leaders exist, and have existed.

So phantoms and cult leaders don't really have that much in common, now, do they?

David B

Are you NOT aware that Jesus was the Child of a Ghost in the NT? It is extremely STRANGE that you are UNAWARE of Marcion's Phantom but are making claims that Jesus was too much of an asshole when there is ZERO written evidence in the NT that Jesus was an ASSHOLE.

Please, read gMatthew 1.18-20 and Luke 1.26-35 and you will see that it is NOT claimed at all that Jesus was an ASSHOLE.

In the NT, Jesus was the Child of a HOLY GHOST, the Creator of heaven and earth, God Incarnate, was given an NAME above EVERY NAME on earth.

Jesus Christ was NO ASSHOLE in the NT CANON.

Jesus was LORD and was GOD.

Where do you get you stories from?

Philippians 2

Quote:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name, 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And, again Jesus Christ in the NT did NOT start any religion known as Christians.

In the NT, Jesus WARNED his disciples that NO-ONE should know he was CHRIST.

Mt 16:20 -

Quote:

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

In the NT, JESUS CHRIST was NOT an ASSHOLE he was GOD.

John 1:1-4 -

Quote:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 [color=red]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.[/color

In effect, Jesus was MYTH. Gods are considered MYTHS in the 21st century NOT ASSHOLES.

David B · 05-23-2011, 05:28 PM

I still maintain that someone who curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, and demands that his followers put him above their families, among other stuff, is an asshole.

Whether historical character, or character in a work of fiction - still an asshole.

Irrational rages and demands that followers put them above families does seem to fit lots of historical cult leader assholes, though, so I don't think a working hypothesis that the reported Jesus was a historical cult leader is unreasonable,

David B

Davka · 05-23-2011, 05:47 PM

He was certainly an asshole to the woman at the well.

Assuming he actually existed, of course.

Guest46854 · 05-23-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

He was certainly an asshole to the woman at the well.

Assuming he actually existed, of course.

Nah, the bibul dosn't explicitly say he was, just a lot of clues in the way of unsubstantionated, third-party references (which may hold up in court however.)

But as a totally uninterested spectator, I'm convinced :Cheeky:-
So let's hang his ass :devil1:

aa5874 · 05-23-2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I still maintain that someone who curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, and demands that his followers put him above their families, among other stuff, is an asshole.

Whether historical character, or character in a work of fiction - still an asshole.

Irrational rages and demands that followers put them above families does seem to fit lots of historical cult leader assholes, though, so I don't think a working hypothesis that the reported Jesus was a historical cult leader is unreasonable,

David B

You think an ASSHOLE was ACTUALLY worshiped as a God?

The Romans WORSHIPED EMPERORS as Gods in Antiquity and you want me to believe that Constantine and the Roman people worshiped a KNOWN ASSHOLE as a GOD and declared the ASSHOLE to be the Creator of heaven and earth.

Your hypothesis does NOT make sense.

It is FAR MORE reasonable that when the Jesus story started the people of antiquity did BELIEVE that Jesus was God Incarnate and NOT an ASSHOLE.

And, again, you have BEEN SHOWN the evidence.

Jesus Christ in the NT did NOT start a cult called Christians. Jesus COMMANDED that the disciples tell NO MAN that he was Christ.

Why do you maintain your DEBUNKED position?

Why do you IGNORE the evidence in the NT that CONTRADICTS you?

You will NEVER find that Jesus Christ was an ASSHOLE in the NT.

Toto · 05-23-2011, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I still maintain that someone who curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, and demands that his followers put him above their families, among other stuff, is an asshole.

Whether historical character, or character in a work of fiction - still an asshole.

Irrational rages and demands that followers put them above families does seem to fit lots of historical cult leader assholes, though, so I don't think a working hypothesis that the reported Jesus was a historical cult leader is unreasonable,

David B

For a real person, these characteristics are not nice. But for a mythical person they fit the plot. The fig tree and the season are symbolic of Israel. Putting the cause ahead of one's family is a common desire.

aa5874 · 05-23-2011, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I still maintain that someone who curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, and demands that his followers put him above their families, among other stuff, is an asshole.

Whether historical character, or character in a work of fiction - still an asshole.

Irrational rages and demands that followers put them above families does seem to fit lots of historical cult leader assholes, though, so I don't think a working hypothesis that the reported Jesus was a historical cult leader is unreasonable,

David B

For a real person, these characteristics are not nice. But for a mythical person they fit the plot. The fig tree and the season are symbolic of Israel. Putting the cause ahead of one's family is a common desire.

But, David B argument is that he BELIEVES Jesus was a REAL ASSHOLE. David B does not appear to understand that the Jesus story is ALL SYMBOLIC.

Examine Matthew 21.21

Quote:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Toto · 05-24-2011, 12:21 AM

There was a historical prophet associated with the doomsday cult - Paul.

Failed Prophesy and a mirror

Quote:

. . . one of the first failed prophesies concerning The Rapture (tm) was that of ... Paul of Tarsus. He spends a good deal of time explaining why one shouldn't get married or treat your spouse in a manner other than how you would a sibling - Jesus is comin'.

David B · 05-24-2011, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I still maintain that someone who curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, and demands that his followers put him above their families, among other stuff, is an asshole.

Whether historical character, or character in a work of fiction - still an asshole.

Irrational rages and demands that followers put them above families does seem to fit lots of historical cult leader assholes, though, so I don't think a working hypothesis that the reported Jesus was a historical cult leader is unreasonable,

David B

You think an ASSHOLE was ACTUALLY worshiped as a God?

The Romans WORSHIPED EMPERORS as Gods in Antiquity and you want me to believe that Constantine and the Roman people worshiped a KNOWN ASSHOLE as a GOD and declared the ASSHOLE to be the Creator of heaven and earth.

Your hypothesis does NOT make sense.

It is FAR MORE reasonable that when the Jesus story started the people of antiquity did BELIEVE that Jesus was God Incarnate and NOT an ASSHOLE.

And, again, you have BEEN SHOWN the evidence.

Jesus Christ in the NT did NOT start a cult called Christians. Jesus COMMANDED that the disciples tell NO MAN that he was Christ.

Why do you maintain your DEBUNKED position?

Why do you IGNORE the evidence in the NT that CONTRADICTS you?

You will NEVER find that Jesus Christ was an ASSHOLE in the NT.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that early Christians thought Christ an asshole. No doubt the followers of Koresh and his ilk didn't think they were assholes. I suggest that they were, though.

And I don't mean a literal asshole, either.

David

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05-23-2011, 05:28 PM	#123
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	I still maintain that someone who curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, and demands that his followers put him above their families, among other stuff, is an asshole. Whether historical character, or character in a work of fiction - still an asshole. Irrational rages and demands that followers put them above families does seem to fit lots of historical cult leader assholes, though, so I don't think a working hypothesis that the reported Jesus was a historical cult leader is unreasonable, David B

05-23-2011, 05:47 PM	#124
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	He was certainly an asshole to the woman at the well. Assuming he actually existed, of course.

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