Amaleq13

I'm not sure why the specific numbers of other magicians or quantity of food is relevant but I know of one earlier example and his name was "Elisha" (2 Kings 4:42-44).

In fact, it is difficult to imagine that the author of Mark wasn't deliberately referring to this important figure from the Hebrew Bible and deliberately increasing the quantities involved to convey a specific theological message about Jesus.

Dennis MacDonald, The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, suspects that the number of men present (ie 5000) is derived from a male-only feast involving 4500 that Homer describes.

Angrillori

Procurator:

Heh.

In an effort to bring this to a more fruitful level:

If that is the case, if my position that you aren't going to actually show evidence is unsupported, I would relish being proven wrong.

The story goes, that a scientist was at a convention. At the event, he had the chance to listen to another scientist disprove a theory he'd been working on for 15 years. Rather than being mad, he stood up, walked to the podium, and thanked the scientist who disproved his theory.

I relish the opportunity to thank you for disproving my position by presenting evidence.

Procurator

Hi guys,

Why do you think that Mark "deliberately increased" the quantities involved when relating this miracle?

Nice try. You'll have to wait, perhaps indefinitely. But hey -- you can keep yourself amused by jumping to conclusions.

Procurator

Angrillori

Excellent, I think that was my point.

Since no evidence is forthcoming, perhaps indefinitely, I can appreciate the irrationality of your beliefs.

In re: jumping to conclusions.

After a long history of dealing with those who make an unsupported claim, I pondered the chances that you would support yours. I came to the tentative hypothesis you would join those ranks. After careful consideration I offered the position that you would offer no evidence. You seemed to disagree with such. However, by failing to produce evidence, you have, verified my carefully considered conclusion. You replied in a sense furthering my belief that, in fact, you would offer no evidence that anyone ever produced X thousand loaves/fish, including Jebus (an implicit premise in your question).

So, we have:

A carefully considered hypothesis, based on previous events.
Confirmation of said hypothesis.

I don't see any conclusion jumping 'round here, just tested and verified theory!

Plus, if scale is what makes a magic great, I don't remember Jebus making anything as large as the Statue of Liberty dissappear...damn, David Copperfield is Gawd!!! By the same 'logic' you're attempting to use to defend Jebus' divinity.

Procurator

Angrillori, and Sven I suppose,



The writings of Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Lucian, and the Babylonian Talmud are only some of many extra-biblical documents of historical value which relate episodes in Jesus' life. I'm not entirely sure if the feeding of the five thousand is recorded somewhere other than Bible, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Besides that, the New Testament is itself regarded as having historical value, and there are accounts therein of Jesus feeding lots of people with little food. In terms of evidence, that's all I can give.

Do you accept the accounts of Jesus' miracles in the NT or do you disregard them? If you do not, what are your reasons for not accepting the Bible's value as a historical document, specifically the NT?

Procurator

Angrillori

Procurator:

Thank you for offering what you're using as evidence. Rather than reply flippantly to a post that you seem to have put thought in, please allow me some time to provide an adequate reply.

I'm not dodging, I just want to make sure to give the attention it deserves.

(Plus, I'm expecting an appointment soon so I'll have to log off anyways. )

Procurator

Angrillori,

Take your time dude. I'm expecting you to tear my "evidence" to shreds anyway. I'll be interested to hear what you have to say. And no, I didn't put much thought into the post.

In hindsight:

Confirmation of said hypothesis: no. Putting the horse before the cart: yes.

Procurator

Amaleq13

It establishes the superiority of Jesus over Elisha while maintaining a direct connection to the Hebrew Bible (ie the significance of the character in Jewish tradition).

Agnostic Theist

About this five fish jobby

Since there was so much leftover, doesn't that contradict the maxim that greed is a sin?

'Thou shalt not stuffeth thy face and I shalt not perform tricks for thy entertainment...unless 5,000 of you moan about being hungry'

Dadt comment (made by primary/elementary school teacher of mine years ago)

The miracle was that Jesus shared his food and encoured everyone else to share.

OK, let's see. say we have 10 people and 4 apples. That means 6 people get no apples. OK, so split the apples in half. That means 2 people get no apples. We could split 2 of the apples again, but then 4 people get less and that's not fair. So let's start again, split the apples so everyone gets a piece. In fact, let's make sure there's 5 left over.

Nope, it's not happening!

Naked Ape

Speaking of the reliability of Tacitus miracle reportage, do you think Jebus was pissed off about Vespasian ripping off his magic spit cure for blindness? Too bad he didn't know a good copyright lawyer eh?
I see your personal savior and raise you a magic emperor. Do you accept the writings of Tacitus and his accounts of Vespasian's miracles? If you do not, what are your reasons for not accepting the Tacitus' writing as historical documents? I mean if you consider him to be reliable to testify about Jebus' existance and miracles, do you accept Vespasian's miracles as well? If not, why not?

Cheers,

Naked Ape