youngalexander

Does this argument count for all real historic persons?

Chaucer

I think there may be four questions coming off this: Is God real?

If so, is Jesus really God?

Or does Jesus think that he is God?

Or did the real Jesus never say he was God?

Each of these questions is effectively tucked inside its predecessor. At the same time, the third and fourth of these questions could also stand outside the first two entirely and be pertinent without any God.

Candidly, it's the third question that interests me most. And I think the most productive way of answering that is to concentrate only on those earliest textual strata where Jesus's remarks can be taken .......... how? Why don't our readers be the judge?

Here's a two-part thought exercise: First off, Let's, for the sake of argument, jettison from our minds everything we may have read, pro or con, on whether or not Jesus is God, Son of God, or whatever. Let's jettison anything that may be in our memories of any remarks of any kind ever put into Jesus's mouth on this question -- or even tangentially related to this question -- in any of the Gospels or the Paulines. Let's pretend we've never read anything on this topic anywhere in Jesus's own remarks about himself. Let's pretend our knowledge of these remarks is entirely that there are no such remarks at all, period.

That's the first part of this exercise. Now we're ready for the second and really pertinent part of the exercise, and it involves the three earliest textual strata of Jesus material, which appear to be the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, the parallel sayings in Matthew/Luke and the Sinaiticus/Vaticanus mss. of Mark. Now let's pretend that we have achieved the first part of the thought exercise -- that part that establishes that we are thinking along the lines of there never having been any known remarks from Jesus himself on who/what he is, at all. Having achieved that, let's pretend that -- with our minds now a tabula rasa -- we suddenly come across these three ancient sources and these three ancient sources only, for the first time. Now remember for this exercise that we have -- for now -- absolutely no associations, pro or con, on either who/what Jesus is, or on anything that Jesus said about himself. We are thus viewing these three sources for the first time autonomously. We are confining ourselves strictly within the four corners of whatever we find in the three earliest textual strata of Jesus material, which appear to be the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, the parallel sayings in Matthew/Luke and the Sinaiticus/Vaticanus mss. of Mark. What does Jesus say about himself strictly within these three sources?

Well, perhaps not so surprisingly, rather little, actually. But he does say a few things -- very few! My suggestion is that -- while maintaining the second part of this exercise, with the successful achievement of the first part of this exercise now a given -- we next -- in an autonomous, free-standing way, confining ourselves strictly within the four corners of these three strata and these three strata only -- assess how these Jesus quotes in only these three strata come across to us. What could he possibly be saying here?

DON'T necessarily jump to the traditional understanding of what he's saying in these passages at all. Instead, pretend they are all you've ever read about him. Then attempt to work out an explanation of what he's talking about in these three strata.

Why? Because there is the very real possibility that these earliest strata contain all that he ever really said on who/what he was -- that all the rest of his known remarks in the later strata constitutes ad hoc extrapolation only.

Instead, let's maintain both parts of this thought exercise for now and view in a strict vacuum just these very few remarks by Jesus himself on who/what he was, as found in these three earliest strata:


In Thomas 61, we have --

[Jesus] "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and other will live."
Salome said to him, "Who are You, man, that You, as though from the One, have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?"
Jesus said to her, "I am He who exists from the Undivided. I was given some of the things of my Father."
<Salome said,> "I am Your disciple."
<Jesus said to her,> "Therefore I say, if he is <undivided>, he will be filled with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness."

In Thomas: 99 --

The disciples said to Him, "Your brothers and Your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do the will of My Father are My brothers and My mother. It is they who will enter the Kingdom of My Father."

In the parallel sayings in Matt./Luke sometimes termed Q, Luke: 10:21-22 reads --

10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
10:22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Luke (or Q): 22:28-30 reads --

22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Finally, in Mark: 14:61-62, we have --

14:61 But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
14:62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."


Tha-tha-tha-that's all, folks. Pretty slim pickings, isn't it? But that's all there is in these earliest strata. Now ............................

...................... what do each of you think he's really saying about himself in these five sayings? Strictly in a vacuum, just what is he saying here? -- and only here!

Thank you,

Chaucer