Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-18-2007, 11:00 PM

Essenic Philosophy and its Parallels

Additionally above is an interesting selection of verses taken
from the new testament which are in fact paralleled in the
literature of Philo and Josephus about the essenes.

It was originally compiled by Kersey Graves in his work
"The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors", Chapter 31:
Christianity Derived from Heathen and Oriental Systems,
a parallel exhibition of the precepts and practical lives
of Christ and the Essenes."

wordy · 04-19-2007, 08:21 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran

I bought books about Qumran when it was in vogue to read about them.

But I have not followed latest developments.

Are they not the more hardline of Essenes then. Are they separate from Essenes?

Should I have skipped the Essenes and only referred to the real scrolls from the caves then.

Doesn't the Damascus text show that there was a group that was not Pharises and not Saducees but a third or fourth variety that could have sympatizers around and maybe they saw themselves as the poor in heart and saw themselves as the saviors of sinners?

I know my suggestion is just a speculation but if you read John 4 txt then it treats the anonymous woman as a kind of representation of her people. She as a spokesperson and messenger to them that Jesus also was for them and not only for jews themselves.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4;&version=31;
My main arguement is that in the txt about Saul becoming Paul in Acts they portray "Jesus" to say to him that he is chasing "Jesus" when he chase and kill his followers.

They are "Jesus" cause they have his spirit in them. They are followers and embody him or incarnate him on earth. A twisted interpretation I know but it could explain why it is so hard to find evidence for a historical "Jesus".

He has never existed. "Jesus" is the term for the followers of the heavenly Christ and christ incarnated in the followers is the earthly "Jesus".

Maybe too twisted for literalistic fundies and literalistic atheists who want it to be logic and easily debunkable.

If God emerge in our "hearts" when we open us emotionally to the message of Christ incarnated in "the poor at heart and mind" then this kind of almost crazy theology is kind of too lame to refute or mock or condemn, it is too wimpy for real strong atheists to get angry at. To shrug ones shoulders or shake head at but too crazy to get really angry at.

Very few of us hard line atheists are angry at the Gnostics are we? So it is kind of fun to think of christian faith as a faul play or trick they came up with that is too screwed to get taken for reasonable by the very rational freethought community.

It is easier to debunk a virgin borned historical Jesus than a social construct like the one me make up here.

wordy · 04-19-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.

Jesus respresent the Jews and She represent the Samaritans and they had a row with each other. Not supposed to get along well with each other.

Samaritans almost as the untouchables. Confirmed in text the diciples stands far way to not get contamied by the nearness of her.

Quote:

John 4:9 Or do not use dishes Samaritans have used

Quote:

18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

The text is in reality referring to the whole of Samaritan people but use her as the here and now example. If one look in OT then they have the reason there for why Jews and Samaritans was on a clash theologically and most likely politically.

I try to find relevant passage. 2 King something

spin · 04-19-2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

the argument in the topic post that this historically elusive sect, that remains a mere blip in the textual universe of antiquity, somehow casts doubt on the historicity of the better attested Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus of where?

wordy · 04-19-2007, 08:44 AM

Israel Exiled Because of Sin

2 King 17

As I get the text it says that to be true to god all goes well but if you have faith in other gods beside god then you get in trouble. Example also from Samarian people.

Quote:

27 Then the king of Assyria gave this order: "Have one of the priests you took captive from Samaria go back to live there and teach the people what the god of the land requires." 28 So one of the priests who had been exiled from Samaria came to live in Bethel and taught them how to worship the LORD.

29 Nevertheless, each national group made its own gods in the several towns where they settled, and set them up in the shrines the people of Samaria had made at the high places. 30 The men from Babylon made Succoth Benoth, the men from Cuthah made Nergal, and the men from Hamath made Ashima; 31 the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak, and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire as sacrifices to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim. 32 They worshiped the LORD, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places. 33 They worshiped the LORD, but they also served their own gods in accordance with the customs of the nations from which they had been brought.

34 To this day they persist in their former practices. They neither worship the LORD nor adhere to the decrees and ordinances, the laws and commands that the LORD gave the descendants of Jacob, whom he named Israel. 35 When the LORD made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: "Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them. 36 But the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. 37 You must always be careful to keep the decrees and ordinances, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. 38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. 39 Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies."

40 They would not listen, however, but persisted in their former practices. 41 Even while these people were worshiping the LORD, they were serving their idols. To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their fathers did.

So by using the OT but interpreting it and making examples from "real" historic persons supposed to meet in "real" places and in a time close to those reading they replace the OT to teach the listeners how to be obedient to the true faith.

Neither "Jesus" nor the Samarian woman is "real" their function is like when we look at TV series like "Lost" or whatever. Those persons tell a story. They act out the text.

Here "Jesus" act out a text from 2 King 17 about how to relate to god.

Speculatiion indeed but to me as a hard line atheist much more likely than that a "real" historical Jesus to have existed.

wordy · 04-19-2007, 09:05 AM

Look at The Bible and John 4 as a functional text. It's purpose is to hold the people who adhere to it together and obeying the policy of those in charge.

My speculation is that the NT is a functional text and not a historical text. It plays out the message from the OT but in a new interpretation but set as if in a real historical scenary

Jesus is not real as far as I know.

Gamera · 04-19-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I understand your method. But to talk about the single author Josephus seems to ignore two other sources.

Ben.

Well, I mispoke Ben, in my frenzy to be right. So shoot me.

The point is the quantity and quality of the evidence for the historicity of Jesus far outweighs that of the historicity of the Essenes, so the topic post is unsupportable. Both are sufficient evidence of historicity for me.

Ben C Smith · 04-19-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

So shoot me.

Bang.

Cheers.

Ben.

wordy · 04-19-2007, 10:46 AM

Gamera and Ben, could you take that off topic thing in another thread?

My OP is about the symbolic use of an alleged person "Jesus" to in reality be a group.

Mistakingly me thought Essenes was historical.

I have now changed to the Scrolls from Qumran as evidence of a group that cared to be different.

They are not fictional. They actually exists. We only know very little about them.

My interpretation could be very wrong and I know it is a loose speculation but it seems very logical to me.

They had the text of OT. They had a tradition to interpret that text and what I suggests is that some of them came up with this "elaborated" way to give "cred" to their interpretation. To move the text to a time close to their own.

Their beloved "Teacher" lived 100 years before the alleged "Jesus". Maybe he too is fictional. They practiced on giving him cred and it didn't seem to get enough following to survive so my bold suggestion is that break out groups started the "Jesus" movement and they got taking over by those who mocked up Saul/Paul. And them got taken over by the Constantine people.

spin · 04-19-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

The point is the quantity and quality of the evidence for the historicity of Jesus far outweighs that of the historicity of the Essenes, so the topic post is unsupportable. Both are sufficient evidence of historicity for me.

So that spiel will convince you, huh? The quantitative argument is a real clincher: there are hundreds of millions of Barbie effigies in this world... but I guess you need the qualitative evidence as well. The funny thing is that you've never presented any. You've just been on this mini-crusade whinging that if you won't accept my hero, I won't accept any of yours.

I understand that you need the conviction that Jesus is historical, but you've never gone to the next stage of attempting to collect and present the evidence -- nor even enunciating the criteria for demonstrating historicity. Ratty (the Vatican front-man) doesn't think much of the necessity for a historical Jesus. If he can be content without it, why can't you? It'd save you a lot of grief.

spin

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04-18-2007, 11:00 PM	#11
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Essenic Philosophy and its Parallels Additionally above is an interesting selection of verses taken from the new testament which are in fact paralleled in the literature of Philo and Josephus about the essenes. It was originally compiled by Kersey Graves in his work "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors", Chapter 31: Christianity Derived from Heathen and Oriental Systems, a parallel exhibition of the precepts and practical lives of Christ and the Essenes."

04-19-2007, 08:21 AM	#12
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran I bought books about Qumran when it was in vogue to read about them. But I have not followed latest developments. Are they not the more hardline of Essenes then. Are they separate from Essenes? Should I have skipped the Essenes and only referred to the real scrolls from the caves then. Doesn't the Damascus text show that there was a group that was not Pharises and not Saducees but a third or fourth variety that could have sympatizers around and maybe they saw themselves as the poor in heart and saw themselves as the saviors of sinners? I know my suggestion is just a speculation but if you read John 4 txt then it treats the anonymous woman as a kind of representation of her people. She as a spokesperson and messenger to them that Jesus also was for them and not only for jews themselves. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4;&version=31; My main arguement is that in the txt about Saul becoming Paul in Acts they portray "Jesus" to say to him that he is chasing "Jesus" when he chase and kill his followers. They are "Jesus" cause they have his spirit in them. They are followers and embody him or incarnate him on earth. A twisted interpretation I know but it could explain why it is so hard to find evidence for a historical "Jesus". He has never existed. "Jesus" is the term for the followers of the heavenly Christ and christ incarnated in the followers is the earthly "Jesus". Maybe too twisted for literalistic fundies and literalistic atheists who want it to be logic and easily debunkable. If God emerge in our "hearts" when we open us emotionally to the message of Christ incarnated in "the poor at heart and mind" then this kind of almost crazy theology is kind of too lame to refute or mock or condemn, it is too wimpy for real strong atheists to get angry at. To shrug ones shoulders or shake head at but too crazy to get really angry at. Very few of us hard line atheists are angry at the Gnostics are we? So it is kind of fun to think of christian faith as a faul play or trick they came up with that is too screwed to get taken for reasonable by the very rational freethought community. It is easier to debunk a virgin borned historical Jesus than a social construct like the one me make up here.

04-19-2007, 09:05 AM	#16
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Look at The Bible and John 4 as a functional text. It's purpose is to hold the people who adhere to it together and obeying the policy of those in charge. My speculation is that the NT is a functional text and not a historical text. It plays out the message from the OT but in a new interpretation but set as if in a real historical scenary Jesus is not real as far as I know.

04-19-2007, 10:46 AM	#19
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Gamera and Ben, could you take that off topic thing in another thread? My OP is about the symbolic use of an alleged person "Jesus" to in reality be a group. Mistakingly me thought Essenes was historical. I have now changed to the Scrolls from Qumran as evidence of a group that cared to be different. They are not fictional. They actually exists. We only know very little about them. My interpretation could be very wrong and I know it is a loose speculation but it seems very logical to me. They had the text of OT. They had a tradition to interpret that text and what I suggests is that some of them came up with this "elaborated" way to give "cred" to their interpretation. To move the text to a time close to their own. Their beloved "Teacher" lived 100 years before the alleged "Jesus". Maybe he too is fictional. They practiced on giving him cred and it didn't seem to get enough following to survive so my bold suggestion is that break out groups started the "Jesus" movement and they got taking over by those who mocked up Saul/Paul. And them got taken over by the Constantine people.

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