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Old 08-29-2011, 10:03 PM   #201
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No, for me, the only good evidence in this debate for the historicity of Jesus Christ (or at least as believed by the Apostles) is the New Testament canon itself, specifically the Epistles.
Your "evidence" is non-existent. You don't know who Paul was, or who wrote those letters. You do know that the proto-orthodox church worked them over.
Have you ever said something similar to Earl Doherty?

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He says he likes her ideas. He won't say much more than that.
Exactly my point. What ideas of hers did he like when they're basically believed by serious scholars and historians to be complete rubbish?

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But you can't trust anyone in this field. You have to actually look at the evidence.
But when the majority of experts in a certain field have the same position on something, then chances are they're most likely bloody right ... or they're taking the most reasonable approach (regardless of whether or not it's ultimately right/wrong).

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Because "Paul" displays a lot of self-confidence in the rest of the epistles. He puts down Peter/Cephas and James. He knows that God called him from the womb.

So what is more likely - that he had a sudden attack of humility, or that the same editors who put together the Book of Acts added this to keep "Paul" in his place?
I don't know whether Paul was clinically a narcissist or not, but I do know narcissists will use "sudden attacks of humility" from time to time for whatever reasons just to keep their "fans/followers" manipulated into worshipping/admiring them.

I know from experience.

So that issue you're speculating seems to be in your mind only.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:11 PM   #202
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The forum is open to anyone who abides by the rules, including you, and including Christians and other non-rational types.
What's your point here? I said nothing about anyone here violating the rules.

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Which views do you think are "known not to be rational" and who knows this?
Well, here's what I'm having a big problem with.

People who claim to be skeptics coming here and telling me that Paul and the Apostles believed that Jesus must've been crucified in a heavenly way by heavenly means by heavenly/demonic beings in some heavenly realm or unknown "unhistorical" place on earth, that he was born in a heavenly/metaphorical way "according to the flesh" (which is meant to be interpreted metaphorically/spiritually even if the context suggests a literal interpretation), that he had the Last Supper (with cups and all) in a heavenly fashion in "God knows where the hell the realm was", that he was buried in some fucking heavenly realm not on earth, and other stuff like that.

These people expect me to take their views seriously without any evidence whatsoever for their speculations.

I bet you if it was a bunch of religious people saying this shit, almost every person here would be ganging up upon him and calling him out on this bullshit.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:18 PM   #203
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....When did I argue that the Paul and the other Apostles believed Jesus to just simply be a man?

Strawman arguments much?
Well, Jesus was a resurrected MYTH.

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... Jesus wasn't simply just a man according to Paul...
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:18 PM   #204
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To be honest, I'm a bit disappointed that this forum seems to be dominated by views known not to be rational.
We do have a couple of fruitcakes who do a lot of posting, but I wouldn't say they dominate the forum.

In any case, "widely believed" is not equivalent to "known." It's a distinction that seems to elude entirely too many historicists.
Widely believed by experts in the field means that an amateur who opposes their position is most likely wrong.

And besides, all these Doherty mythicists are doing is making up issues in the text where there are none and filling in the gaps with their unfounded speculations that they themselves forced into the text.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:19 PM   #205
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....When did I argue that the Paul and the other Apostles believed Jesus to just simply be a man?

Strawman arguments much?
You have a bad memory.

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... Jesus wasn't simply just a man according to Paul...
Do you have poor reading comprehension skills?
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:22 PM   #206
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To be honest, I'm a bit disappointed that this forum seems to be dominated by views known not to be rational.
Again, I would not put this as strongly as you, but agree in principle.

I don't know why it is. Perhaps it's because Earl Doherty posts here?

I don't know the answer. But in a way, it's more fun when 'the gang's all here' as it were.

I have not yet seen a myther argument which stands up to scrutiny.

I might add that if I did I would not be disappointed. When I first encountered this topic, I was intrigued, and as an atheist, would have lapped it up merrily if the whole shebang was like a house of cards with no table. Unfortunately, it took me very little time to come to a different conclusion. And, for what it's worth, though this is really only a side issue, I am of the opinion that mytherism cheapens rational skepticism and possibly, by extension/association, atheism.
Notice how spin took issue at you criticising mytherism.

I have a feeling he's being deceptive by claiming he's "neutral".
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:32 PM   #207
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....When did I argue that the Paul and the other Apostles believed Jesus to just simply be a man?

Strawman arguments much?
You have a bad memory.

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Originally Posted by MCalavera
... Jesus wasn't simply just a man according to Paul...
Do you have poor reading comprehension skills?
You seem to have a bad memory. Your posts are recorded.

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Originally Posted by MCalavera
...I'm arguing that Paul himself considered Jesus to be a historical figure because he treated whatever he said about Jesus as facts (not myths) IN COMBINATION WITH the fact he basically said he was a man born as a man, lived as a man, and died as a man...
What skills you have!!!

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Originally Posted by MCalavera
... Jesus wasn't simply just a man according to Paul...
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:38 PM   #208
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Do you have poor reading comprehension skills?
You seem to have a bad memory. Your posts are recorded.



What skills you have!!!

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Originally Posted by MCalavera
... Jesus wasn't simply just a man according to Paul...
What's your IQ, mate?
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:53 PM   #209
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... Jesus wasn't simply just a man according to Paul...
I have IDENTIFIED your IQ.

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Originally Posted by MCalavera
...When did I argue that the Paul and the other Apostles believed Jesus to just simply be a man?..
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCalavera
...I'm arguing that Paul himself considered Jesus to be a historical figure because he treated whatever he said about Jesus as facts (not myths) IN COMBINATION WITH the fact he basically said he was a man born as a man, lived as a man, and died as a man...
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:54 PM   #210
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Your "evidence" is non-existent. You don't know who Paul was, or who wrote those letters. You do know that the proto-orthodox church worked them over.
Have you ever said something similar to Earl Doherty?
Why do you ask?

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Exactly my point. What ideas of hers did he like when they're basically believed by serious scholars and historians to be complete rubbish?
Acharya S is trying to revive the 19th century history of religion theories on the origins of religion. They are out of fashion now, but Price does not follow fashion. Price agrees with Acharya S on the Egyptian origins of the Christ myth and various aspects of Christianity, although he has said that he thinks that the evidence is lost and he will never be able to prove that Jesus is based on Horus. I don't fully understand Price's position, but I don't see the point in using it to taint everything else he has written. He does have two PhD's and an amazing depth of knowledge in his area.

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But you can't trust anyone in this field. You have to actually look at the evidence.
But when the majority of experts in a certain field have the same position on something, then chances are they're most likely bloody right ... or they're taking the most reasonable approach (regardless of whether or not it's ultimately right/wrong).
You have to start out with who qualifies as an expert, and know what they base their expert opinion on. Christian apologists like to argue that there is some sort of expert consensus on the existence of Jesus, without actually looking at the consensus or what it is based on. From what I have seen, there is no actual expert consensus on the historicity of Jesus. There is no real agreement on the standards of evidence.

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...

I don't know whether Paul was clinically a narcissist or not, but I do know narcissists will use "sudden attacks of humility" from time to time for whatever reasons just to keep their "fans/followers" manipulated into worshipping/admiring them.

I know from experience.

So that issue you're speculating seems to be in your mind only.
The speculation is not original with me. Paul's letters are an endless source of puzzlement and opportunities for theologians to try to make sense of.
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