FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-14-2012, 12:46 AM   #131
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

More on Philo's understanding of the sons of Jacob 'becoming white.' In On Flight and Finding:

Quote:
Accordingly Jacob both flees from Esau, and also dwells apart from his parents; for being fond of practising virtue and still labouring at it, he flees from wickedness, and yet is unable to live in company with perfect virtue so as to have no need of an instructor. On which account we read, "He will depart to Laban," not to him as the Syrian, but as the brother of his mother; that is to say, he will go to the brilliancies of life; for Laban, being interpreted, means "white." And when he has arrived there he will not hold his head too high, from being puffed up with the happy events of fortune; for the word Syrian, being translated, means "sublime." But now he does not recollect the Syrian Laban, but the brother of Rebekkah; for the means of life being given to a bad man, inflate and raise up to great height the mind which is devoid of wisdom, which is called the Syrian; but if they are bestowed on a lover of instruction, then they make the mind inclined to abide by the steady and solid doctrines of virtue and excellence. This is the brother of Rebekkah, that is to say, of perseverance, and he dwells in Charran, which name, being interpreted, means "holes," a symbol of the external senses; for he who is still moving about in mortal life has need of the organs of the external senses. (46) "Dwell, therefore," says she, "O my child, with him," not all thy life, but "certain days;" that is to say, learn to be acquainted with the country of the external senses; know thyself and thy own parts, and what each is, and for what end it was made, and how it is by nature calculated to energise, and who it is who moves through those marvellous things, and pulls the strings, being himself invisible, in an invisible manner, whether it is the mind that is in thee, or the mind of the universe. And, when you have become thoroughly acquainted with yourself, then examine accurately also the peculiar qualities of Laban; the things which are accounted brilliant instances of the success of empty glory; but do not you be deceived by any one of them, but like a good workman adapt them all in a skilful manner to your own necessities; for if, while immersed in this political and much confused life, you display a stable and wellinstructed disposition, I will send for you from thence that you may receive the same prize which also your parents received: and the prize is the unchangeable and unhestitating service of the only wise God.
Similarly in his discussion of dreams Philo tells us that 'white' has a very specific meaning:

Quote:
There is another dream also which belongs to the same class, that one I mean about the spotted flock, which the person who beheld it relates after he had awoke, saying, "The angel of God spake unto me in a dream, and said, Jacob; and I said, What is it? And he said unto me, Look up with thine eyes, and see the goats and the rams mounting on the flocks, and the she-goats, some white, and spotted, and ring-straked, and speckled: for I have beheld all that Laban does unto thee. I am that God who was seen by thee in the place of God, where thou anointedst the pillar, and vowedst a vow unto me. Now therefore, rise up and depart out of the land, and go into the land of thy birth, and I will be with Thee." (Gen 31:11)

... Also the practiser of virtue is also called one of this company dear to God, being deservedly accounted worthy of the same honour; for, says the scripture, "The angel of God said to me in my sleep, Jacob: and I answered, and said, What is It?" (Gen 31:10) But after he has been called he exerts his attention, endeavouring to arrive at an accurate knowledge of the symbols which are displayed to him; and these symbols are the connection and generation of reasonings, as flocks and herds. For, says the scripture, "Jacob, looking up with his eyes, saw the goats and rams leaping upon the shegoats and upon the sheep." Now the hegoat is the leader of the flock of goats, and the ram is the leader of the flock of sheep, and these two animals are symbols of perfect reasonings, one of which purifies and cleanses the soul of sins, and the other nourishes it and renders it full of good actions. Such then are the leaders of the flocks in us, namely, reasons; and the flocks themselves, resembling the sheep and goats whose names they bear, rush forwards and hasten with zeal and earnestness towards justice. Therefore, looking up with the eye of his mind, which up to that time had been closed, he saw the perfect and thoroughly sharpened reasons analogically resembling the goats and rams, prepared for the diminution of offences and the increase of good actions. And he beheld how they leap upon the sheep and the goats, that is on those souls which are still young and tender, and in the vigour of youth, and beautiful in the flower of their age; not pursuing irrational pleasure, but indulging in the invisible sowing of the doctrines of prudence. (1.200) For this is a marriage which is blessed in its children; not uniting bodies, but adapting perfect virtues to well-disposed souls. Therefore do all ye right reasons of wisdom leap up, form connections, sow seed, and pass by no soul which you see rich and fertile, and welldisposed, and virgin; but inviting it to association and connection with you, render it perfect and pregnant; for so you will become the parents of all kinds of good things, of a male offspring, white, variegated, ring-straked, and speckled.

But we must now examine what power each of these offspring has. Now those which are purely white (dialeukoi) are the most beautiful and the most conspicuous: the word dia being often prefixed in composition by way of adding force to the word, so that the words diadeµlon and diaseµmion are commonly used to signify what is very conspicuous (deµlon) and very remarkable (episeµmon); (1.202) therefore the meaning here is that the first-born offspring of the soul which has received the sacred seed, is purely white; being like light in which there is no obscurity, and like the most brilliant radiance: like the unclouded beam which might proceed from the rays of the sun in fine weather at mid-day.
Again, by the statement that some are variegated, what is meant is, not that the flocks are marked by such a multiform and various spottedness as to resemble the unclean leprosy, and which is an emblem of a life unsteady and tossed about in any direction by reason of the fickleness of the mind, but only that they have marks drawn in regular lines and different characters, shaped and impressed with all kinds of well approved forms, the peculiarities of which, being multiplied together and combined properly, will produce a musical harmony. (1.203) For some persons have looked upon the art of variegating as so random and obscure a matter, that they have referred it to weavers. But I admire not only the art itself, but the name likewise, and most especially so when I look upon the divisions of the earth and the spheres in heaven, and the differences between various plants and various animals, and that most variegated texture, I mean the world; (1.204) for I am compelled to suppose, that the maker of this universal textile fabric was also the inventor of all varied and variegating science; and I look with reverence upon the inventor, and I honour the art which he invented, and I am amazed at the work which is the result, and this too, though it is but a very small portion of it which I have been able to see, but still, from the portion of which has been unfolded to me, if indeed I may say that it has been unfolded, I hope to form a tolerably accurate judgment of the whole, guiding my conjectures by the light of analogy. (1.205) Nevertheless I admire the lover of wisdom for having studied the same art, collecting and thinking fit to weave together many things, though different, and proceeding from different sources, into the same web; for taking the first two elements from the grammatical knowledge imparted to children, that is to say, reading and writing, and taking from the more perfect growth of knowledge the skill which is found among poets, and the comprehension of ancient history, and deriving certainty and freedom from deception from arithmetic and geometry, in which sciences there is need of proportions and calculations; and borrowing from music rhyme, and metre, and harmonies, and chromatics, and diatonics, and combined and disjoined melodies; and having derived from rhetoric invention, and language, and arrangement, and memory, and action; and from philosophy, whatever has been omitted in any of these separate branches, and all the other things of which human life consists, he has put together in one most admirably arranged work, combining great learning of one kind with great learning of another kind. (1.206) Now the sacred scripture calls the maker of this compound work Besaleel, which name, being interpreted, signifies "in the shadow of God;" for he makes all the copies, and the man by name Moses makes all the models, as the principal architect; and for this reason it is, that the one only draws outlines as it were, but the other is not content with such sketches, (1.207) but makes the archetypal natures themselves, and has already adorned the holy places with his variegating art; but the wise man is called the only adorner of the place of wisdom in the oracles delivered in the sacred scriptures.

And the most beautiful and varied work of God, this world, has been created in this its present state of perfection by all-wise knowledge; and how can it be anything but right to receive the art of variegating as a noble effort of knowledge? the most sacred copy of which is the whole word of wisdom, which will bear about in its bosom the things of heaven and of earth, from which the practiser of virtue elaborates his notions of various things. For after the white sheep he immediately beheld the variegated animals, stamped with the impression of instruction. The third kind are the ring-straked and speckled; and what man in his senses would deny that these also are, as to their genus, variegated? but still he is not so very eager about the varieties of the members of the flocks, as about the road which leads to virtue and excellence; (1.210) for the prophet intends that he who proceeds along this road shall be besprinkled with dust and water; because it is related that the earth and water being kneaded together and fashioned into shape by the Creator of man, was formed into one body, not being made by hand, but being the work of invisible nature. (1.211) Therefore it is the first principle of wisdom not to forget one's self, and always to keep before one's eyes the materials of which one has been compounded; for in this way a man will get rid of boasting and arrogance, which of all evils is the one most hated by God; for who that ever admits into his mind the recollection that the first principles of his formation are dust and water, would ever be so puffed by vanity as to be unduly elated? (1.212) On this account the prophet has thought it fit that those who are about to offer sacrifice shall be sprinkled with the aforesaid things; thinking no one worthy to appear at a sacrifice who has not first of all learnt to know himself, and to comprehend the nothingness of mankind, and the elements of which he is composed, conjecturing from them that he himself is utterly insignificant.

XXXVII. (1.213) These three signs, the white, the variegated, and the ring-straked and speckled, are as yet imperfect in the practiser of virtue, who has not himself as yet attained to perfection. But, in the case of him who is perfect, they also appear to be perfect. And in what manner they appear so we will examine. (1.214) The sacred scripture has appointed that the great High Priest, when he was about to perform the ministrations appointed by the law, should be besprinkled with water and ashes in the first place, that he might come to a remembrance of himself. For the wise Abraham also, when he went forth to converse with God, pronounced himself to be dust and ashes. In the second place, it enjoins him to put on a tunic reaching down to his feet, and the variouslyembroidered thing which was called his breastplate, an image and representation of the lightgiving stars which appear in heaven. (1.215) For there are, as it seems, two temples belonging to God; one being this world, in which the high priest is the divine word, his own firstborn son. The other is the rational soul, the priest of which is the real true man, the copy of whom, perceptible to the senses, is he who performs his paternal vows and sacrifices, to whom it is enjoined to put on the aforesaid tunic, the representation of the universal heaven, in order that the world may join with the man in offering sacrifice, and that the man may likewise co-operate with the universe. He is now therefore shown to have these two things, the speckled and the variegated character.

We will now proceed to explain the third and most perfect kind, which is denominated thoroughly white. When this same high priest enters into the innermost parts of the holy temple, he is clothed in the variegated garment, and he also assumes another linen robe, made of the very finest flax. (1.217) And this is an emblem of vigour, and incorruptibility, and the most brilliant light. For such a veil is a thing very difficult to be broken, and it is made of nothing mortal, and when it is properly and carefully purified it has a most clear and brilliant appearance. (1.218) And these injunctions contain this figurative meaning, that of those who in a pure and a guileless spirit serve the living God, there is no one who does not at first depend upon the firmness and obstinacy of his mind, despising all human affairs, which allure men with their specious bait, and injure them, and produce weakness in them. In the next place, he aims at immortality, laughing at the blind inventions with which mortals delude themselves. And last of all, he shines with the unclouded and most brilliant light of truth, no longer desiring any of the things which belong to false opinion, which prefer darkness rather than light.

XXXVIII. (1.219) The great high priest of the confession, then, may have now been sufficiently described by us, being stamped with the impressions above-mentioned, the white,
the variegated, and the ring-straked and speckled. But he who is desirous of the administration of human affairs, by name Joseph, does not, as it appears, claim for himself any of the extreme characteristics, but only that variegated one which is in the middle between the others. (1.220) For we read that Joseph had a "coat of many Colours,"{52}{#ge 37:3.} not being sprinkled with the sacred purifications, by means of which he might have known that he himself was only a compound of dust and water, and not being able to touch that thoroughly white and most shining raiment, virtue. But being clothed in the much-variegated web of political affairs, with which the smallest possible portion of truth is mixed up; and also many and large portions of plausible, probable, and likely falsehoods, from which all the sophists of Egypt, and all the augurs, and ventriloquists, and sorcerers spring; men skilful in juggling, and in incantations, and in tricks of all kinds, from whose treacherous arts it is very difficult to escape. (1.221)

And it is on this account that Moses very naturally represents this robe as stained with blood; since the whole life of the man who is mixed up in political affairs is tainted, warring on others and being warred against, and being aimed at, and attacked, and shot at by all the unexpected chances which befall him. (1.222) Examine now the man who has great influence with the people, on whom the affairs of the city depend. Do not be alarmed at those who look with admiration upon him; and you will find many diseases lurking within him, and you will see that he is entangled in many disasters, and that fortune is dragging him violently in different directions, though he bends his neck the other way, and resists, although invisibly, and in fact that fortune is seeking to overthrow and destroy him; or else the people themselves are impatient at his supremacy, or he is exposed to the attacks of some more powerful rival. (1.223) And envy is a formidable enemy, and one hard to be shaken off, clinging also to everything that is called good fortune, and it is not easy to escape from it.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 12:51 AM   #132
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I am starting to think that the point of 'whitening' is to be remade not after the copy (i.e. the present world) but after the original template from which the world was created (= the Father). Remember Philo has the Word as demiurge and the world is not directly made in the image of God the Father but indirectly through the world which the Logos (imperfectly?) constructed after the image (indirectly or not) of the Father.

My guess is that the idea develops elsewhere that the Jewish god is only the god of this age and will be replaced in the age to come figures into this also.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 07:49 AM   #133
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mondcivitan Republic
Posts: 2,550
Default

So, the looong arm of the "Christian cabal" conspirators reaches even to Marcion, whose literature you have previously concluded they only occasionally, kinda, sorta, know?

Oy! "May you become a politician!"

DCH

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
And now we must ask whether Galatians 6:17 originally read τὰ στίγματα [marks (pl.)] τοῦ Κυρίου or τὸ σημεῖον [sign (sg.)] τοῦ Χριστοῦ. The phraseology of Clement's gospel AND the original Marcionite recension of Galatians being deliberately altered so the Paul wouldn't be seen as referencing a written gospel which was already known to him.
DCHindley is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 09:07 AM   #134
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I don't understand your point. But speaking of Marcion. Here's something else I have been thinking about. Jacob takes sheep from another flock and 'rebrands' them as his own. Doesn't that remind you of the Patristic accusations against the 'good God' of the Marcionites (i.e. that he takes away or redeems the believers in the Creator and changes them to make them part of his fold)?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 11:48 AM   #135
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Both the Hebrew and Greek ( λευκός) terms for white also mean “bright”. I think Clement's conception of the cross as chresimon is the final confirmation that it is a star. The star gives of supernal light that “whitens” believers. But why don't the non-believers get affected by this light?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 01:19 PM   #136
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I think I figured it all out driving home in the snow(!) listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn's version of Little Wing on a jazz radio station. This is the original Marcionite gospel narrative in a nutshell.

(1) Jesus comes down from heaven and appears as a man
(2) he preaches and heals
(3) he picks one disciple above all others, Judas

Quote:
Nor does your god, for if he had foreknown the issue, he would not have chosen the traitor Judas. If you allege that the Creator practised deception in any instance, there was a far greater mendacity in your Christ, whose very body was unreal. Many were consumed by the severity of my God. Those also who were not saved by your god are verily disposed by him to ruin. My God ordered a man to be slain. Your god willed himself to be put to death; not less a homicide against himself than in respect of him by whom he meant to be slain. I will moreover prove to Marcion that they were many who were slain by his god; for he made every one a homicide: in other words, he doomed him to perish, except when people failed in no duty towards Christ. But the straightforward virtue of truth is contented with few resources. Many things will be necessary for falsehood. [Against Marcion 2.28]

Ergo nec vester. Iudam traditorem non adlegisset, si praescisset. Si et mentitum alicubi dicis creatorem, longe maius mendacium est in tuo Christo, cuius corpus non fuit verum. Multos saevitia dei mei absumpsit. Tuus quoque deus quos salvos non facit utique in exitium disponit. Deus meus aliquem iussit occidi. Tuus semetipsum voluit interfici, non minus homicida in semetipsum quam in eum a quo vellet occidi. Multos autem occidisse deum eius probabo Marcioni. Nam fecit homicidam, utique periturum, nisi si populus nihil deliquit in Christum. Sed expedita virtus veritatis paucis amat. Multa mendacio erunt necessaria.
(4) Irenaeus tells us in Against Heresies Book Two that the heresies involve Judas in the crucifixion somehow. The Islamic apocrypha has Jesus chose Judas to be a substitution on the cross.
(5) Judas (= 30 i.e. the gnostic pleroma identified with Jesus) but also is the root of the name Jew, indeed the name "Judas" means "the Jew." Jesus preparing Judas to look like Jesus and then be substituted on the cross carries a deeper allegorical symbolism insofar as the Jews who see 'the Jew' crucified are clearly seeing themselves.
(6) now we have the deeper layer of the Jews looking up seeing 'the Jew' impaled on the chreston/chresimon symbol. It isn't just a mystical mumbo-jumbo act of purification. The 'light' from the chi-rho cross penetrates their heart (if they are not too 'fleshy') and 'enlightens' them in the very same manner as the First Hymn of Mark in the Samaritan culture:

ל
Quote:
Punishments don’t disconcert the sinner, nor do wounds frighten him. He doesn’t take any notice. The rebel sees himself delivered up to punishments, and finds himself crucified.[1] He turns to his possessions(?) and knows that there is no enjoyment from it.
מִ Death can be compared to a Priest making someone drink the Bitter Water of Testing.[2] Woe on whoever is found to have committed sin. Woe on all sinners, since they will be in great distress. The punishments they suffer are the result of all their offences.
נִ The soul (or individual) stands dumbfounded. Those living are in great affliction, because the Good has turned his face away from them. If the Merciful does not save, and remember those that love him, all the sinners will bewail themselves, because they are in great distress.
סִ The signs tell us that in this generation of ours there is not a single person not in partnership with sinners. The mothers and children, all of whom took part and rebelled,[3] they too are punished with[4] crucifixion.[5]
עִ The fact is that by our sins we are the ones that are the murderers, murderers of the silent and those that can speak. Innocent animals or children that have never sinned, or young adults of good descent, suffer for sins they never committed.
פִ It is the Age of Disfavor[6] that has brought all this suffering about. The fruit of the womb is stopped, and the fruit of the earth destroyed. Every place is becoming accursed for us. The mouth of punishment is open before, ready to swallow up the baby with the old man.
ר Merciful and Good, treat us justly and well as is your nature. We can’t withstand this judgment. A leaf on a tree startles a sinner, so how can we withstand judgment that startles the world? Treat us justly and well, so that we aren’t crucified [7] by punishments
(6) there was someone standing in the crowd watching 'the Jew' get crucified with 'faith' (or an open heart) i.e. the mother of John and John.
(7) they became 'white' or purified in the brightness of the star and became transformed. That's why you have two naked youths in the gospel of Mark - i.e. Judas in the addition to longer Mark and John-Mark in Mk 14:52. There were two participants in the Christian purification sacrifice rituals.

It has always been my contention that the same 'Mark' wrote the gospel narrative and the first (and most important) hymn of the Samaritans. The same idea is expressed in both - 'hey Jews, stop acting like rebellious idiots, learn from the example of the crucified one.'

I will have to look and see if there are any references to 'bright' and 'whitening' in the first hymn but I think I have the substance of my first book on the 'Jesus myth' albeit from a Palestinian perspective (as opposed to all those stupid books which argue that Jesus is Osiris and the like).

The only question now is what significance did the chrestos symbol have being on the cross - i.e. what does being a useful or good sacrifice imply?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #137
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

In case people aren't aware of the Islamic tradition in this regard here is only the most popular version of the 'substitution' of Judas for Jesus. It is certainly not the oldest:

Quote:
Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.

The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'
Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.

When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.

As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth.

Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?

As God lives,' you shall not escape it!' And having said this he commanded his servants to smite him with buffetings and kicks, so that his understanding might come back into his head. The derision which he then suffered at the hands of the high priest's servants is past belief. For they zealously devised new inventions to give pleasure to the council. So they attired him as a juggler, and so treated him with hands and feet that it would have moved the very Canaanites to compassion if they had beheld that sight. But the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of the people had their hearts so exasperated against Jesus that, believing Judas to be really Jesus, they took delight in seeing him so treated.

Afterwards they led him bound to the governor, who secretly loved Jesus. Whereupon he, thinking that Judas was Jesus, made him enter into his chamber, and spoke to him, asking him for what cause the chief priests and the people had given him into his hands. Judas answered: 'If I tell you the truth, you will not believe me; for perhaps you are deceived as the (chief) priests and the Pharisees are deceived.'

The governor answered (thinking that he wished to speak concerning the Law): 'Now know you not that I am not a Jew? but the (chief) priests and the elders of your people have given you into my hand; wherefore tell us the truth, wherefore I may do what is just. For I have power to set you free and to put you to death.' Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me.'

When he heard this the governor marvelled greatly, so that he sought to set him at liberty. The governor therefore went out, and smiling said: 'In the one case, at least, this man is not worthy of death, but rather of compassion.' 'This man says,' said the governor, 'that he is not Jesus, but a certain Judas who guided the soldiery to take Jesus, and he says that Jesus the Galilean has by his are magic so transformed him. Wherefore, if this be true, it were a great wrong to kill him, seeing that he were innocent. But if he is Jesus and denies that he is, assuredly he has lost his understanding, and it were impious to slay a madman.'

Then the chief priests and elders of the people, with the scribes and Pharisees, cried out with shouts, saying: 'He is Jesus of Nazareth;, for we know him; for if he were not the malefactor we would not have given him into your hands. Nor is he mad; but rather malignant, for with this device he seeks to escape from our hands, and the sedition that he would stir up if he should escape would be worse than the former.' Pilate (of such was the governor's name), in order to rid himself of such a case, said: 'He is a Galilean, and Herod is king of Galilee: wherefore it pertains not to me to judge such a case, so take you him to Herod.'

Accordingly they led Judas to Herod, who of a long time had desired that Jesus should go to his house. But Jesus had never been willing to go to his house, because Herod was a Gentile, and adored the false and lying gods, living after the manner of the unclean Gentiles. Now when Judas had been led thither, Herod asked him of many things, to which Judas gave answers not to the purpose, denying that he was Jesus. Then Herod mocked him, with all his court, and caused him to be clad in white as the fools are clad;, and sent him back to Pilate, saying to him, 'Do not fail in justice to the people of Israel!' * And this Herod wrote, because the chief priests and scribes and the Pharisees had given him a good quantity of money. The governor having heard that this was so from a servant of Herod, in order that he also might gain some money, feigned that he desired to set Judas at liberty.

Whereupon he caused him to be scourged by his slaves, who were paid by the scribes to slay him under the scourges. But God, who had decreed the issue, reserved Judas for the cross, in order that he might suffer that horrible death to which he had sold another. He did not suffer Judas to die under the scourges, notwithstanding that the soldiers scourged him so grievously that his body rained blood. Thereupon, in mockery they clad him in an old purple garment;, saying: 'It is fitting to our new king to clothe him and crown him': so they gathered thorns and made a crown, like those of gold and precious stones which kings wear on their heads. And this crown of thorns they placed upon Judas' head, putting in his hand a reed for sceptre;, and they made him sit in a high place.

And the soldiers came before him, bowing down in mockery, saluting him as King of the Jews. And they held out their hands to receive gifts, such as new kings are accustomed to give; and receiving nothing they smote Judas, saying: 'Now, how are you crowned, foolish king, if you will not pay your soldiers and servants?' *The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty to death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

But they that stood firm in the doctrine of Jesus were so encompassed with sorrow, seeing him die who was entirely like to Jesus, that they remembered not what Jesus had said. And so in company with the mother of Jesus they went to Mount Calvary, and were not only present at the death of Judas, weeping continually, but by means of Nicodemus and Joseph of Abarimathia; they obtained from the governor the body of Judas to bury it. Whereupon, they took him down from the cross with such weeping as assuredly no one would believe, and buried him in the new sepulchre of Joseph; having wrapped him up in an hundred pounds of precious ointments. (Gospel of Barnabas 216 - 217)
stephan huller is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 07:21 PM   #138
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics.
Posts: 359
Default

Sorry, but I see elements of the synoptics and John in the Gospel of Barnabas. So to me, it appears to be derivative, and late.

Maybe even Islamic in origin.

Wikipedia -- Gospel of Barnabas
la70119 is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 08:08 PM   #139
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by la70119 View Post
Sorry, but I see elements of the synoptics and John in the Gospel of Barnabas. So to me, it appears to be derivative, and late.
Reading skills. Use them.
spin is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 08:36 PM   #140
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics.
Posts: 359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by la70119 View Post
Sorry, but I see elements of the synoptics and John in the Gospel of Barnabas. So to me, it appears to be derivative, and late.
Reading skills. Use them.
I do use them.

Jan Joosten, The Date and Provenance of the Gospel of Barnabas.

Quote:
The so-called Gospel of Barnabas is a curious writing. A hotch-potch of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim materials, it has given rise to much scholarly rspeculation as to its historical background. vastly differing hypotheses have been proposed to explain its origin. What is undeniable is that the Gospel of Barnabas represents a kind of gospel harmony, intergrating within a single account elements of the four canonical gospels---although it also incorporates much extraneous material.
Jan Joosten goes on to say in this article that it can be demonstrated that the Gospel of Barnabas was originally an Italian text and that it could reasonably be dated to hail from the fourteenth century.

Yes, stephan did say it was not one of the earliest sources, but still, I know what I saw in that text. I should have said I saw Muslim traditions in there as well. Which I didn't. :banghead:

But I still stand by what I said!
la70119 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:33 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.